So, are we looking for cornerbacks?

patfanken · Apr 1, 2015

patsfaninpa said:
If the NFL had a good minor-league system, that would be a good area to try and develop players like that. With every roster space a premium, it's hard to bring along talented but un-prepared kids.

You are making it a lot harder than it has to be. None of them are actually prepared. We already have the template. You are looking for an athlete who is 5'2 or above, can run the 40 in 4.4-4.5, has quick enough feet to 7.0 or better in the 3 cone and can do a 4.1 - 4..3 shuttle. If he's a good enough athlete to do that, and has some physical toughness, you can teach a kid enough to contribute to the kicking game and play in a few situations where his size would matter.

At its basic level football really isn't rocket science. Think about it. Every single year HS football coaches manage to put together functioning football teams out of freshman, sophomores and juniors, many who have never played before, and do it from scratch within 3 weeks, working 3 just hours a day, to become a functioning football team. Now if you are lucky you get just 4 or 5 guys to work with 60-80 kid, and do it part part time.

That's every year taking an amorphous glob of goo and somehow turning it into a what looks like a organized functioning organism in about 3 weeks. If you thought about what actually goes into it, its really impressive what these guys do EVERY year. Every year HS coaches have to get a dozen or so kids who have never played the game before ready to play

Image what you could do with superior athletes, 15-20 assistants working with 90 guys who actually know what they are doing, working 12 hours a day. Believe me. I wasn't a super coach, but I am confident, I could take a non-football player who was tough and willing and if he's a good enough athlete, he could coach him up enough to contribute to a football team.

Its not like they haven't done it already. In a sense they did it with Edelman.....twice. (WR and CB) and once with Nate Ebner. They did it with Steven Neal How would it be different. It would just take time, and while in the learning curve the contributions would be limited.

'But again, I'm not looking for a star, I'm looking for a body type who can compete against a similar body type in very specific situations. It's not a matter of "can" it be done, the fact is that it HAS to be done, or the only time the defense is going to stop an offense is when the offense F's up

luuked · Apr 2, 2015

patfanken said:
You are making it a lot harder than it has to be. None of them are actually prepared. We already have the template. You are looking for an athlete who is 5'2 or above, can run the 40 in 4.4-4.5, has quick enough feet to 7.0 or better in the 3 cone and can do a 4.1 - 4..3 shuttle. If he's a good enough athlete to do that, and has some physical toughness, you can teach a kid enough to contribute to the kicking game and play in a few situations where his size would matter.

At its basic level football really isn't rocket science. Think about it. Every single year HS football coaches manage to put together functioning football teams out of freshman, sophomores and juniors, many who have never played before, and do it from scratch within 3 weeks, working 3 just hours a day, to become a functioning football team. Now if you are lucky you get just 4 or 5 guys to work with 60-80 kid, and do it part part time.

That's every year taking an amorphous glob of goo and somehow turning it into a what looks like a organized functioning organism in about 3 weeks. If you thought about what actually goes into it, its really impressive what these guys do EVERY year. Every year HS coaches have to get a dozen or so kids who have never played the game before ready to play

Image what you could do with superior athletes, 15-20 assistants working with 90 guys who actually know what they are doing, working 12 hours a day. Believe me. I wasn't a super coach, but I am confident, I could take a non-football player who was tough and willing and if he's a good enough athlete, he could coach him up enough to contribute to a football team.

Its not like they haven't done it already. In a sense they did it with Edelman.....twice. (WR and CB) and once with Nate Ebner. They did it with Steven Neal How would it be different. It would just take time, and while in the learning curve the contributions would be limited.

'But again, I'm not looking for a star, I'm looking for a body type who can compete against a similar body type in very specific situations. It's not a matter of "can" it be done, the fact is that it HAS to be done, or the only time the defense is going to stop an offense is when the offense F's up

First of all you can't compare HS or even College level athletes to the NFL. The margin of error at the professional level is so much smaller because you face the best of the best. Every week. Therefore suggesting that we should just build our of CB out of an athletic mold is a very flawed proposition. Especially because in the end the athleticism that you describe is almost completely irrelevant for the success of a CB. Yes, any CB needs to have all of that to be able to compete physically but the most important traits for a CB can all not be measured by combine metrics. This is what makes drafting CBs so much harder than most other positions.

Furthermore, I think that size gets overvalued a bit. Anticipation, technique and fluid movement skills (including jumping) can more than make up lacking a few inches in size. Also, I'd argue that maybe you should also look arm length and wingspan instead of only body size.

patsfaninpa · Apr 2, 2015

patfanken said:
You are making it a lot harder than it has to be. None of them are actually prepared. We already have the template. You are looking for an athlete who is 5'2 or above, can run the 40 in 4.4-4.5, has quick enough feet to 7.0 or better in the 3 cone and can do a 4.1 - 4..3 shuttle. If he's a good enough athlete to do that, and has some physical toughness, you can teach a kid enough to contribute to the kicking game and play in a few situations where his size would matter.

At its basic level football really isn't rocket science. Think about it. Every single year HS football coaches manage to put together functioning football teams out of freshman, sophomores and juniors, many who have never played before, and do it from scratch within 3 weeks, working 3 just hours a day, to become a functioning football team. Now if you are lucky you get just 4 or 5 guys to work with 60-80 kid, and do it part part time.

That's every year taking an amorphous glob of goo and somehow turning it into a what looks like a organized functioning organism in about 3 weeks. If you thought about what actually goes into it, its really impressive what these guys do EVERY year. Every year HS coaches have to get a dozen or so kids who have never played the game before ready to play

Image what you could do with superior athletes, 15-20 assistants working with 90 guys who actually know what they are doing, working 12 hours a day. Believe me. I wasn't a super coach, but I am confident, I could take a non-football player who was tough and willing and if he's a good enough athlete, he could coach him up enough to contribute to a football team.

Its not like they haven't done it already. In a sense they did it with Edelman.....twice. (WR and CB) and once with Nate Ebner. They did it with Steven Neal How would it be different. It would just take time, and while in the learning curve the contributions would be limited.

'But again, I'm not looking for a star, I'm looking for a body type who can compete against a similar body type in very specific situations. It's not a matter of "can" it be done, the fact is that it HAS to be done, or the only time the defense is going to stop an offense is when the offense F's up

Do you really think the defender has to be as tall as the player he is covering? Or, are you being obstinate? The reason cb's tend to be smaller is that their change of direction abilities have to be better than the wr. They don't know ahead of time where the play is taking them. The wr does. It's easier for someone 5'11" or 6'0" to have those types of hips that can turn(Much more important than height when evaluating corners. But, you already knew that because you were a football coach.) and run with someone who can run a 4.3 or 4.4 forty. Being tall doesn't help in most pass coverage situations. Being quick and fast gets you in position. Arm length and vertical jumping are factored in because it makes up for a couple of inches in height.

The Gr8est · Apr 2, 2015

mayoclinic said:
1. I completely agree about not reaching to fill needs. That is the door that leads to perdition. Like you, I doubt the Pats will do that. The closest example that I can think of to going into a draft with a glaring need was 2010, after the Pats allowed Ben Watson to leave in FA and cut Chris Baker. That was the strongest prospective TE class in memory, which helped. Even so, the Pats made a strong play to trade for Greg Olsen from Chicago, before balking at the asking price (reportedly a 2nd). They double dipped with Gronk and Hernandez, and we know how that played out.

Of course on the other side of the coin, we DID find perdition when the Pats were butting heads with Vince Wilfork on his contract and ended up drafting his potential replacement in Ron Brace.

I always give BB the benefit of the doubt, and my evaluation of prospects is nowhere close to his, even if we both have the same Intel available to us, which we don't. Given that, I recoiled when I heard the pick, and my distaste of the pick was ultimately proven correct. Filling a need to fill a need is generally not the best course of action.

Among other negatives, I remember that Brace had, literally, the slowest 40 time in the entire draft.

mihap · Apr 2, 2015

patsfaninpa said:
Do you really think the defender has to be as tall as the player he is covering? Or, are you being obstinate? The reason cb's tend to be smaller is that their change of direction abilities have to be better than the wr. They don't know ahead of time where the play is taking them. The wr does. It's easier for someone 5'11" or 6'0" to have those types of hips that can turn(Much more important than height when evaluating corners. But, you already knew that because you were a football coach.) and run with someone who can run a 4.3 or 4.4 forty. Being tall doesn't help in most pass coverage situations. Being quick and fast gets you in position. Arm length and vertical jumping are factored in because it makes up for a couple of inches in height.

So Arrington on Mathews in SB wasnt about height? I think with thoose two passes even Revis wouldnt be able to defend it.

mgteich · Apr 2, 2015

BelichickFan said:
A powerful DT or a stud OG are just as big of a need for me.

A powerful DT and a stud OG are a big need for most of us. That does not translate into using Pick 32 for those purposes. Many here don't expect value at 32 at either of those positions, although Fisher certainly seems possible to be available.

BelichickFan · Apr 2, 2015

mgteich said:
Many here don't expect value at 32 at either of those positions, although Fisher certainly seems possible to be available.

If you insist on a CB you're probably looking at the 5th or 6th CB if we stay at #32. There's some CB I like that could be there but I don't think the value is any greater at CB than at the other positions.

Personally I'm still a strong proponent of trading out for a #1 next year + whatever we can get this year if we have a partner. But if we have to stay at #32 I'm probably wanting a Cam Erving or A.J. Cann at OG or a Goldman at DT along with probably P.J. Williams at CB assuming Jones is gone.

patchick · Apr 2, 2015

BelichickFan said:
If you insist on a CB you're probably looking at the 5th or 6th CB if we stay at #32. There's some CB I like that could be there but I don't think the value is any greater at CB than at the other positions.

Maybe the talent isn't any greater at CB at #32, but the dropoff of talent afterwards looks sharper. OG & DT are relatively deep positions in this draft.

manxman2601 · Apr 2, 2015

patchick said:
Maybe the talent isn't any greater at CB at #32, but the dropoff of talent afterwards looks sharper. OG & DT are relatively deep positions in this draft.

Great point.

kennyb · Apr 2, 2015

PJ WILLIAMS will almost certainly be the pick if available.

mgteich · Apr 2, 2015

patchick said:
Maybe the talent isn't any greater at CB at #32, but the dropoff of talent afterwards looks sharper. OG & DT are relatively deep positions in this draft.

The question is whether the steep dropoff for corners starts after 32 or after 42.

To be more direct. The first six seem to be (in whatever order) Waynes, Collins, Johnson, Peters, Jones and Johnson. One or two should be there at 32.

How far is the talent drop off to guys like Rollins, Carter and Darby?

I could see us at 32 with one of the "top" six corners there, and Belichick content to trade down a bit, expecting to get of one of four corners who he may have as almost equal in value. For example, Belichick might move down 5 spots for a 4th or less for a 5th.

mosi's man · Apr 2, 2015

I think the Pats are going to get a pick from the Jets. The consensus for the draft is that it isn't very deep and most of the Pats needs are going in positions they can likely find "value" later in the second/third/early fourth round. I think the Pats are going to sit at 32 and see if someone they really like falls towards the end of the round (Gurley, Peters, maybe Erving, etc.) and look to jump over Baltimore, Seattle, or a Denver to snag such a player. I think they'll expend a second or a third from the Jets, for example, to move up 3-5 places to grab a guy they think has fallen. If they can't, I wouldn't be surprised it they get out, even into next year, and take some "lottery picks" in the end of the second and in the third. So that's my story and I'm stickin to it....

BelichickFan · Apr 2, 2015

patchick said:
Maybe the talent isn't any greater at CB at #32, but the dropoff of talent afterwards looks sharper. OG & DT are relatively deep positions in this draft.

Agreed but I think our current roster is the same. We have fine depth at CB, obviously we need a couple to step up their play, I think we have less depth at DT (given the advantages of rotating big guys) and OG (especially with Connelly currently a UFA). We lost two starting CB but signed two CB with significant NFL experience.

patchick · Apr 2, 2015

BelichickFan said:
Agreed but I think our current roster is the same. We have fine depth at CB, obviously we need a couple to step up their play, I think we have less depth at DT (given the advantages of rotating big guys) and OG (especially with Connelly currently a UFA). We lost two starting CB but signed two CB with significant NFL experience.

Hmm, interesting question! LG definitely looks like the gaping hole on the roster, but DT vs. CB depth isn't so clear to me. IMO the advantage of rotating big guys is more than balanced out by the fact that more and more snaps are being played with 3+ CBs (and with just one DT).

Branch, Easley, Jones, Siliga & Vellano is no murderers' row, but IMO the problem is top-end talent rather than depth -- much like the CBs.

BelichickFan · Apr 2, 2015

patchick said:
Hmm, interesting question! LG definitely looks like the gaping hole on the roster, but DT vs. CB depth isn't so clear to me. IMO the advantage of rotating big guys is more than balanced out by the fact that more and more snaps are being played with 3+ CBs (and with just one DT).

Branch, Easley, Jones, Siliga & Vellano is no murderers' row, but IMO the problem is top-end talent rather than depth -- much like the CBs.

Agreed mostly although I think we're a little deeper at CB with Easley not having proven himself yet; then I look at Belichick's draft history, given that both DT and CB have reasonable depth but are lacking front end talent. And I find that we are far more likely to draft a DT in the first round. McCourty, in fact, is the only CB we've drafted in the first round. We've had a few #2s but the same can be said for DT.

Things change, maybe this will too, but history says that if the need is about equal and Bill is choosing between a DL and a CB he'll take the DL.

manxman2601 · Apr 3, 2015

BB has proven that he's willing to go into a season with a weakish positional group. Think WR two years ago, the OL last season or the DL in 2013 where the underrated rookies Joe Vellano and Chris Jones were getting significant reps or 2012 where the interior DL was Wilfork, Love, Deaderick, Brace, McClain. I don't think it's a given he drafts a CB if the right value isn't there. He has the numbers currently for some interesting camp battles. He may feel that's enough.

BelichickFan · Apr 3, 2015

I would strongly consider taking a shot at Ifo Ekpre-Olomu if he makes it to our late 3/early 4 run. We have a good number of CB to compete this year (Butler, Ryan, Arrington, Dennard, Fletcher, McClain). That's 6 not including Chewka who's more of a longshot. I know those names don't excite but with just them, there's one (Dennard ?) who likely won't make it as we usually have 5 CB, I believe.

I wouldn't be a bit surprised if we let that group compete, play it out and see who's standing in 12 months. I never bought into Ifo as a mid #1 but he's a good prospect if he gets his knee right and would be a nice bonus heading into 2016. Probably IRed for 2015 although with the injury happening right at the start of this calendar year, PUP and a 2015 return isn't impossible.

Brady6 · Apr 3, 2015

Am I the only one who is really high on Steven Nelson?

manxman2601 · Apr 3, 2015

Brady6 said:
Am I the only one who is really high on Steven Nelson?

No, I've been talking about him for weeks. I've compared him to Dennard. And that's my only real concern. We have a roster full of #2's and 3s and I'm not sure Nelson is a #1.

BelichickFan · Apr 3, 2015

So PJ Williams gets a DUI a month before the draft. Ouch for him. We might get him a little later now.

So, are we looking for cornerbacks?

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