Defensive Front Seven - A Strength?

mgteich said:

So, for me, I can't understand why folks think that we are 2-deep at DE. COULD we use a 1st round draft choice in a position where we have THREE starters, and youngsters? I suppose so. But I don't believe that this will happen.

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Sheard's a starter all ready? did he make the 2015 pro bowl?

RayClay said:

Sheard's a starter all ready? did he make the 2015 pro bowl?

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All he is saying is that Sheard is a starting caliber player who will be part of the rotation and I'm pretty sure you understood that. Sheard got a starter contract and is expected to produce like one.

Ivan said:

All he is saying is that Sheard is a starting caliber player who will be part of the rotation and I'm pretty sure you understood that. Sheard got a starter contract and is expected to produce like one.

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The strange thing is that I have posting for years that we needed to acquire a 3rd DE so that Ninkovitch and Jones didn't have to play over 90% of the reps. For Belichick, that would require that the player be of almost starter quality. Many here didn't think that such a player was worth the money that it would take.

Belichick now has found the player and has paid the money. Ayers started when Jones was injured, but had no role when both Ninkovich and Jones were available. The expectation is that Sheard might have role even with no injuries.
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With regard to the draft, we seem to have an issue with the concept of "impact player". I agree that such a player is not likely to be available at 32, unless one puts a starting LG like Fisher in that category.

It does NOT follow that Belichick will ignore need in evaluating possible choices at 32. As many times as folks want to believe it, I do NOT believe that Belichick ignores need in his evaluation of players. So, yes, Belichick might ignore need if there is an impact player available at 32 at almost any position other than QB and TE. We'll see. I don't think a top 15 player is likely to fall that far (although Gurley is certainly possible).

RayClay said:

Sheard's a starter all ready? did he make the 2015 pro bowl?

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He might have to be if Hightower is out a significant amount of time.

mgteich said:

The strange thing is that I have posting for years that we needed to acquire a 3rd DE so that Ninkovitch and Jones didn't have to play over 90% of the reps. For Belichick, that would require that the player be of almost starter quality. Many here didn't think that such a player was worth the money that it would take.

Belichick now has found the player and has paid the money. Ayers started when Jones was injured, but had no role when both Ninkovich and Jones were available. The expectation is that Sheard might have role even with no injuries.
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With regard to the draft, we seem to have an issue with the concept of "impact player". I agree that such a player is not likely to be available at 32, unless one puts a starting LG like Fisher in that category.

It does NOT follow that Belichick will ignore need in evaluating possible choices at 32. As many times as folks want to believe it, I do NOT believe that Belichick ignores need in his evaluation of players. So, yes, Belichick might ignore need if there is an impact player available at 32 at almost any position other than QB and TE. We'll see. I don't think a top 15 player is likely to fall that far (although Gurley is certainly possible).

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Belichick absolutely figures need info the equation, Holley outlines that clearly in War Room. When they are looking at bringing in players be it the draft or free agency they evaluate them in relation to those at their position on the roster and who they would beat out or replace, and the greater the need the greater the likelihood they bring them in. That doesn't mean they don't look at a variety of other considerations when making their decisions but need is certainly a significant consideration. Imo guard is a big need on this team and there will be some really good OL prospects available when they pick at 32, and some may well be the best player available but they may well decide that there will be good OL prospects later and CB or DT don't have that depth so they address either of those positions early and put off OL until the mid rounds. Even though I don't necessarily agree with it Belichick is on record saying you can get interior OL in mid and later rounds and wait on them for that reason. Personally I want them to take Cameron Serving at 32 if he is there, like Stork I think he would be a mainstay for them for years to come if they can get him, and a great interior line is going to be critical for them.

SeanBruschi54 said:

He might have to be if Hightower is out a significant amount of time.

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If we are in the nickel, we are fine with four DL's plus Mayo and Collins. Sheard would be in the DE rotation as would be the case if all three linebackers are healthy.

If one of the LB's is not ready, it is in the base that we would need Sheard. I suspect that Sheard would be playing DE, with Ninkovitch playing linebacker.

I think it worth noting that Belichick's injury contingency plan for last year involved activating a player from the Practice Squad for the role of base linebacker. After all, we are in the base only 1/3 of the time or less. He used Skinner and Fleming last year. Both are still on the team, and might very well be on the 53 if one of the linebackers is not ready to start the season.

varjao said:

Siliga/Vellano/Jones experiment it's proven that BB can find serviceable players buried in depth charts around the league and udfa as well.

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I don't know how you can come to this conclusion. Jones and Siliga are home runs as far as ROI is concerned. This trend goes back as well to guys like Green, Wright, Love, Deaderick and even Pryor, who was going to be good if not for injuries. We all want dominance on the line, but Bill's ability to mine DT competence out of a pile of scrap metal is incredible. Historic, even.

Nowhere else is IBWT more true than on the defensive line.

Ivan said:

Belichick absolutely figures need info the equation, Holley outlines that clearly in War Room. When they are looking at bringing in players be it the draft or free agency they evaluate them in relation to those at their position on the roster and who they would beat out or replace, and the greater the need the greater the likelihood they bring them in. That doesn't mean they don't look at a variety of other considerations when making their decisions but need is certainly a significant consideration. Imo guard is a big need on this team and there will be some really good OL prospects available when they pick at 32, and some may well be the best player available but they may well decide that there will be good OL prospects later and CB or DT don't have that depth so they address either of those positions early and put off OL until the mid rounds. Even though I don't necessarily agree with it Belichick is on record saying you can get interior OL in mid and later rounds and wait on them for that reason. Personally I want them to take Cameron Serving at 32 if he is there, like Stork I think he would be a mainstay for them for years to come if they can get him, and a great interior line is going to be critical for them.

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It would be ridiculous to say they draft players they don't need at all and I never said anything close to that. They have needs now and in the future and they have the draft, premier free agents and street free agents to fill those needs.

Therefore, when it comes to the draft, they don't pick the next best player at one position, they draft a player they think will make an impact and fill needs other needs elsewhere, rather than trying to pretend the next best CB, DT or whatever is an impact player, if they aren't.

They had a lot of other needs beside defensive tackle in the championship era, yet they picked Wilfork as the third #1 pick on the line.

They even got ripped by Borges for it...certainly not the biggest need


"When the Wizard's voice finally was heard, it actually sounded like Patriots coach Bill Belichick, a man apparently too busy drafting the best defensive lineman available yesterday to take a walk up two flights of stairs and confront the media anxious to ask him just exactly what he had been thinking...


Certainly there were questions to be asked after the Patriots completed the first two rounds of the NFL Draft and came away with two defensive linemen and a tight end, apparently drafting under the theory that if you don't get it right the first time, just repeat yourself.

Perhaps that wasn't truly the case, but that's what they appeared to do in the first round when New England selected highly rated University of Miami defensive tackle Vince Wilfork and Georgia tight end Ben Watson with picks No. 21 and 32, respectively, thereby ignoring the two top-rated running backs, two of the top five cornerbacks, and two of the top half-dozen wide receivers to take players at positions in which they recently invested previous No. 1 picks. The Wiz then followed up by drafting LSU defensive end Marquise Hill in the second round, which certainly should make Ty Warren wonder about his future in Foxborough."

EARLY ON, THEIR DRAFT HAS FAMILIAR LOOK
Boston Globe, The (MA) - April 25, 2004

RayClay said:

They had a lot of other needs beside defensive tackle in the championship era, yet they picked Wilfork as the third #1 pick on the line.

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Wow, Borges had his head up his ass. Wilfork is actually evidence of selecting by need, not the opposite. He filled the hole left by the departing Ted Washington. That position was, by far, the biggest need once they had traded for Dillon.

Oswlek said:

Wow, Borges had his head up his ass. Wilfork is actually evidence of selecting by need, not the opposite. He filled the hole left by the departing Ted Washington. That position was, by far, the biggest need once they had traded for Dillon.

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They selected Wilfork because he dropped to them. Everyone that is succesful, looking back, can be said to have filled a need, but Seymour and warren both played nose sometime and there was a lot of doubt whether Wilfork, who played a penetrating DT in a four man line, would be able to adapt his game to NT.

They certainly had other needs in those days, including linebacker for years and cornerback, which was in worse shape then than it is now IMO.

Once Seympur and Warren left, they certainly had more of a need on tthe DLine than before, yet they drafted no big linemen for years.

They should have a Wrong Hall of Fame, Borges would be the first inductee.

Ivan said:

All he is saying is that Sheard is a starting caliber player who will be part of the rotation and I'm pretty sure you understood that. Sheard got a starter contract and is expected to produce like one.

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None of the other plaers mentioned has done thing one. We hope sheard is what 6you say. He did get a contract, but that is proof of what?

Derick Burgess and Shaun Ellis are just two examples of pass rushers, ma6ybe with big contracts, certainly that cost us in trade [Burgess], with more proven ability, that didn't work out.

M point is, even if Sheard is great, having a young rusher learning the system and available in a team that no longer dominates in the secondary, is fine. To say we don't need a pass rusher because we have Buchanan, Moore and Bequette, is ludicrous. If there's an outstanding prospect there, we'd be crazy to pass it up.

We have one pure pass rusher right now.

RayClay said:

None of the other plaers mentioned has done thing one. We hope sheard is what 6you say. He did get a contract, but that is proof of what?

Derick Burgess and Shaun Ellis are just two examples of pass rushers, ma6ybe with big contracts, certainly that cost us in trade [Burgess], with more proven ability, that didn't work out.

M point is, even if Sheard is great, having a young rusher learning the system and available in a team that no longer dominates in the secondary, is fine. To say we don't need a pass rusher because we have Buchanan, Moore and Bequette, is ludicrous. If there's an outstanding prospect there, we'd be crazy to pass it up.

We have one pure pass rusher right now.

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Feel free to argue with yourself all you want, I never said anything close to what you are responding to. All I said was that Sheard is expected to be part of the rotation and is being paid like it. I never invoked Buchanon, Moore, or Bequette other than to say they have not proven anything at all. I have also said Odighizuwa should be a consideration at 32.

Ivan said:

Feel free to argue with yourself all you want, I never said anything close to what you are responding to. All I said was that Sheard is expected to be part of the rotation and is being paid like it. I never invoked Buchanon, Moore, or Bequette other than to say they have not proven anything at all. I have also said Odighizuwa should be a consideration at 32.

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I'm responding to the original contention by Reiss, that Mgteich agreed with. I though you agreed with them.

I saw some video of Sheard and he looked good and they did give him a contract.

If you disagree with Reiss and Mgteich, then I mistakenly argued the point with you. Apparently we agree that they should not overlook a pass rusher if he's the best available at that spot.

For what it's worth, if Sheard works out, it could give them the luxury of bringing along a young rusher, though I'm not at all sure he's on the roster. I like Buchanan, but what does that mean? He has not seized the opportunity.

RayClay said:

I'm responding to the original contention by Reiss, that Mgteich agreed with. I though you agreed with them.

I saw some video of Sheard and he looked good and they did give him a contract.

If you disagree with Reiss and Mgteich, then I mistakenly argued the point with you. Apparently we agree that they should not overlook a pass rusher if he's the best available at that spot.

For what it's worth, if Sheard works out, it could give them the luxury of bringing along a young rusher, though I'm not at all sure he's on the roster. I like Buchanan, but what does that mean? He has not seized the opportunity.

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Yes, I do NOT believe that Belichick will choose a player in the first round independent of need. We are paying three players as starters at DE, and we have tow developmental players in Buchanan and Moore.

I also do not think that Belichick would choose a QB, TE or S with our pick at 32.

I believe that if a QB, DE, TE or S were clearly the best choice, Belichick would trade down.
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You responded by seeming to take two positions that I (and probably Reiss) disagree with

1) Belichick picks the BPA available and ignores need,

2) We have a strong need at DE, since Sheard is not a proven starting quality DE.

Feel free to clear up any misunderstandings of your position.

You keep including comments like, if "Sheard works out". You implication is that Sheard is incapable of being an injury backup. After all, last year Ninkovich and Jones played over 90% of the reps when they were healthy. At best, Sheard is part of a 3-man rotation. The middle position is that he has the role of Ayers, playing only when Ninkovich or Jones is injured and not playing when they are healthy. In the worst case, Sheard is competing with Moore and Buchanan for backup reps when there is an injury.
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AS AN ASIDE
When Belichick pay a free agent over $5M a year, we expect him to start. In this case, we only expect him to be a backup in case of injury, and perhaps part of a 3-man starting rotation.

mgteich said:

Yes, I do NOT believe that Belichick will choose a player in the first round independent of need.

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Never said he would.

We have traded for, or picked up or drafted many pass rushers over the years. Zero have had any impact except for chandler.

Would Belichick mind having two pass rushers besides chandler, allowing Nink to be more versatile?? I can't see why he would. Certainly better than zero.

RayClay said:

I'm responding to the original contention by Reiss, that Mgteich agreed with. I though you agreed with them.

I saw some video of Sheard and he looked good and they did give him a contract.

If you disagree with Reiss and Mgteich, then I mistakenly argued the point with you. Apparently we agree that they should not overlook a pass rusher if he's the best available at that spot.

For what it's worth, if Sheard works out, it could give them the luxury of bringing along a young rusher, though I'm not at all sure he's on the roster. I like Buchanan, but what does that mean? He has not seized the opportunity.

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What I said was that Sheard was brought in to be part of the rotation at DE/OLB and was given starter money. The young DEs (Buchanon, Moore, and especially Beguette) have done nothing so far. Who they take at 32 is more complex than best player or need as defined by us, and it takes the depth of the draft, impending contracts, and other options for addressing needs into the equation. My view is that the goal of the pick is to get a perennial top of the league player at a position of some need, so QB wouldn't be on that list but most other positions would be if the player warranted it. The short list I have has CB, OL, DT, DE/OLB but could also include a RB, S, or even a LB if they really like the player. I wouldn't reach for need but would take the prospect they think will be a great one. The wild card in the equation is who among the players expected to go in the top 25 drops down to their choice, and if it's a player like Gurley or Davante Parker then they should seriously consider them and make moves with their other picks to address bigger needs than RB or WR. The great thing for the Patriots is that they have the picks to move around and get players they target, and that's before they get compensated for the Jets tampering with Revis. The Patriots are the defending champs and they are young and talented. They have needs to fill and the picks and cap space to address them. There is no replacing Revis but that doesn't mean they can't be a better team next year than they were this year, just different.

Ivan said:

What I said was that Sheard was brought in to be part of the rotation at DE/OLB and was given starter money. The young DEs (Buchanon, Moore, and especially Beguette) have done nothing so far. Who they take at 32 is more complex than best player or need as defined by us, and it takes the depth of the draft, impending contracts, and other options for addressing needs into the equation. My view is that the goal of the pick is to get a perennial top of the league player at a position of some need, so QB wouldn't be on that list but most other positions would be if the player warranted it. The short list I have has CB, OL, DT, DE/OLB but could also include a RB, S, or even a LB if they really like the player. I wouldn't reach for need but would take the prospect they think will be a great one. The wild card in the equation is who among the players expected to go in the top 25 drops down to their choice, and if it's a player like Gurley or Davante Parker then they should seriously consider them and make moves with their other picks to address bigger needs than RB or WR. The great thing for the Patriots is that they have the picks to move around and get players they target, and that's before they get compensated for the Jets tampering with Revis. The Patriots are the defending champs and they are young and talented. They have needs to fill and the picks and cap space to address them. There is no replacing Revis but that doesn't mean they can't be a better team next year than they were this year, just different.

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I agree. Sheard might be the greatest thing since sliced bread, he could be average. Based on our history and his, I'd say that's true. Let's say he's great and we pick a young DE who is great. For one thing, for a team that lost it's starting corners and will have two LBs coming off injury, what's wrong with that? I'd love to see a devastating rush on third down. Maybe Nink plays more LB.

As the years go buy, contracts come up and we change, like every year. I just don't see this as a problem and we have plenty of mid round picks. I'm thinking trades for 2nds myself.

RayClay said:

I agree. Sheard might be the greatest thing since sliced bread, he could be average. Based on our history and his, I'd say that's true. Let's say he's great and we pick a young DE who is great. For one thing, for a team that lost it's starting corners and will have two LBs coming off injury, what's wrong with that? I'd love to see a devastating rush on third down. Maybe Nink plays more LB.

As the years go buy, contracts come up and we change, like every year. I just don't see this as a problem and we have plenty of mid round picks. I'm thinking trades for 2nds myself.

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As I said before I wouldn't reach for need and as needs go DE/OLB is not as urgent as OG,CB, or DT, where they need starters. I'm fine with them taking the player they believe c will become great at a number of positions, and looking at those with first round grades in a number of mocks a really good player should be there for them, the question is how the Patriots rate then, which we won't know until the draft is over.

This thread is so misleading.
when we play zone we are more or a less a front 6 team. We will bring a extra DB to support our backend. At least historically this is what has been the main configuration in Sub Packages.

If some one believe we will buck the trend and suddenly go like Seattle and play straight up and not in sub package is not realistic.

Having said that we will have a decent front 6 but I do see Ninko moving to a off the line role this year to let Hightower come back.