Reiss expects Pats to be fined-deflategate? No farking way

YOUGOTMOSSED · Mar 27, 2015

I share the concerns of the posters feeling we're going to be victims of a league's NY bias when all these investigations are over.

I'm a native New Englander and I've lived in NYC for almost 20 years. After all this time I can say that there just seems to be something really wrong with most of the people there (all fan bases have a lunatic fringe but with NY'ers, it's the majority). It's just a culture that embraces arrogance, dis-ingenuousness, and expediency. I've seen this up close and personal with their court system.

I think the posters here assuring themselves that "well, there's no proof of wrongdoing, so they can't punish us" are in for a rude awaking. I'm 100% convinced that the league will contrive some justification for doing whatever the hell they want. The press has smeared us to the point that rival fans feel validated in their hatred towards us as righteous sentiment and not simply the inflamed passions of jealousy.

I hope I'm wrong but I don't think I am. If I am, I hope Kraft, with the full support of the NE fanbase, fight back against whatever non-sense the league is about to pull.

supafly · Mar 27, 2015

flasox27 said:
My response is that he has already proven he can make up sh=t, Remember when the Jets were caught filming the Pats from an illegal position, the League office stated that it was OK because the Pats gave them permission so no punishment was required. Does anyone believe that BB or any one with the Pats gave them permission . Goodell also said that he never knew the extent of what Rice did to his wife. Does anyone really believe that is true. Furthermore, Goodell's once and future buddy Kraft and the other owners have him the authority to interpret rules and mete punishment as he saw fit. The rule says that the balls have to be a prescribed pressure, When Kensil, Goodell's number two man measured them, they were not at that pressure. A violation occurred and a fine will be meted out. How the pressure went down due to scientific conditions or magical pixies punching holes in the balls does not matter.

Both of those are reasons for why I have concerns as well: 1) The obvious bias that has come from NY and Goodell, and 2) The fact that an equipment violation did seem to occur, although we all feel that it wasn't something that could've been controlled. Perhaps the scientific experts can help to prove our innocence in this regard, as that's about all that can be hoped for.

I'd also add one final reason for concern which PatsWickedPissah brought up, and that's: 3) The fact that the equipment guy/"ball boy" decided to stop to use the restroom, not before, not after---but during the very small window of about 2-5 minutes where his one and only job was to walk from the locker room to the sideline with a bag full of game day balls. That act itself may likely raise the level of suspicion enough to warrant a fine based on circumstantial evidence alone, especially if Goodell is using it to lay down the law for the future.

We'll have to see, but those would be my 3 main concerns.

supafly · Mar 27, 2015

YOUGOTMOSSED said:
I hope I'm wrong but I don't think I am. If I am, I hope Kraft, with the full support of the NE fanbase, fight back against whatever non-sense the league is about to pull.

I wish someone would ask Mike Reiss, or any other beat reporter for that matter, on whether or not the news is true about Roger Goodell actually being the one to hear the appeals process, since it is not an "individual/player" matter, and more of an organizational/team matter. So far, from everything I've read, that seems to be the case of what's been suggested, that Goodell would be the one to overhear any appeals.

If that is indeed the case, then that says a lot about the lower chances that we may have for the ability to have that decision overturned. It would be nice to have that confirmed by someone so that we'd know, however.

EDIT: It does seem as though Goodell has the full authority over the appeals process, although he chose to hand it over during the Saints scandal where individual players were on the block. I don't know if he'd chose to do that for us, and I don't even know if this pertains to a team/organizational related matter anyway, which is what I'd like to have confirmed.

http://www.nfl.com/news/story/0ap10...oodell-steps-aside-from-saints-bounty-appeals

RayClay · Mar 27, 2015

bartscott said:
Are all Pat fans this kind of clueless homers?

The endless conspiracy theories. The absurd claims that weather makes air disappear.

Wow, did you go to school at all? Disappear? Ha ha .

FCB02062 · Mar 27, 2015

My fear is that Kraft's gonna "take one for the team" aka the billionaire boys club known as the NFL....

Ivan · Mar 27, 2015

flasox27 said:
My response is that he has already proven he can make up sh=t, Remember when the Jets were caught filming the Pats from an illegal position, the League office stated that it was OK because the Pats gave them permission so no punishment was required. Does anyone believe that BB or any one with the Pats gave them permission . Goodell also said that he never knew the extent of what Rice did to his wife. Does anyone really believe that is true. Furthermore, Goodell's once and future buddy Kraft and the other owners have him the authority to interpret rules and mete punishment as he saw fit. The rule says that the balls have to be a prescribed pressure, When Kensil, Goodell's number two man measured them, they were not at that pressure. A violation occurred and a fine will be meted out. How the pressure went down due to scientific conditions or magical pixies punching holes in the balls does not matter.

By rule Kensil has absolutely no authority to do anything with any game ball.

VectorPrime · Mar 27, 2015

supafly said:
Both of those are reasons for why I have concerns as well: 1) The obvious bias that has come from NY and Goodell, and 2) The fact that an equipment violation did seem to occur, although we all feel that it wasn't something that could've been controlled. Perhaps the scientific experts can help to prove our innocence in this regard, as that's about all that can be hoped for.

I'd also add one final reason for concern which PatsWickedPissah brought up, and that's: 3) The fact that the equipment guy/"ball boy" decided to stop to use the restroom, not before, not after---but during the very small window of about 2-5 minutes where his one and only job was to walk from the locker room to the sideline with a bag full of game day balls. That act itself may likely raise the level of suspicion enough to warrant a fine based on circumstantial evidence alone, especially if Goodell is using it to lay down the law for the future.

We'll have to see, but those would be my 3 main concerns.

Actually remember that the game was delayed 15ish minutes because the NFCCG went to OT, meaning the ball attendent's window wasn't just 2-5 minutes. Because he had already left the refs room with the balls BEFORE the game got delayed he had to hold onto them for perhaps up to 20 minutes in the tunnel waiting for the players to come out. So there he is just standing around killing time with the bags of balls. So it makes perfect sense he decided to use the time to take a piss.

On top of that, I would bet some good money that it is his specific responsibility that he remain with the balls at ALL times. Meaning he cannot leave them outside if he goes into the bathroom. So he followed the rules bringing them in with him.

QuantumMechanic · Mar 27, 2015

supafly said:
I wish someone would ask Mike Reiss, or any other beat reporter for that matter, on whether or not the news is true about Roger Goodell actually being the one to hear the appeals process

@supafly -- here's some stuff that SI's Michael McCann, an actual lawyer ("the founding director of the Sports and Entertainment Law Institute at the University of New Hampshire School of Law. He is also the distinguished visiting Hall of Fame Professor of Law at Mississippi College School of Law"), had to say about the NFL rules and procedure when the story originally broke:

Michael McCann said:
Along those lines, Article 8.13 of the constitution makes clear the Goodell shall review accusations against teams for violating rules "affecting the competitive aspects of the game" and issue an appropriate penalty. Article 8.14 is also potentially relevant, as it authorizes Goodell to hear disputes between teams that "involve or affect League policy."

Goodell’s review of Deflategate is by no means instantaneous. The constitution requires the commissioner to provide "notice and hearing" to the accused team. This means the Patriots should receive a formal hearing process to contest the accusations before Goodell issues a punishment.

(snip)

Article 8.13(A) of the constitution details how Goodell could punish the Patriots if he finds fault. In cases involving a violation "affecting the competitive aspects of the game," an appropriate penalty for an offending team can be forfeiture of draft choices and a fine up to $500,000. If Goodell concludes the Patriots willfully broke a rule that is designed to guarantee fair play, he would almost certainly fine the Patriots and probably require the team to forfeit draft picks.

(snip)

At the end of the list under 8.14(B), however, the constitution states that the commissioner "can make any other recommendation he deems appropriate." With a three-quarters super majority vote (23 of the 31 NFL teams excluding the Patriots), the Executive Committee can approve Goodell’s recommendation or determine its own punishment.

Whether Goodell or the Executive Committee issues a punishment, the ruling would be "final, conclusive and unappealable." This language would make it extremely difficult for the Patriots to petition a judge to review a league-imposed punishment. The Patriots, like other teams, have also contractually assented not to sue the league or each other.

http://www.si.com/nfl/2015/01/21/ne...tegate-investigation-bill-belichick-tom-brady

and

Michael McCann said:
Whenever the NFL issues a decision on Deflategate, the Patriots will accept it. This is true even if other teams have not been punished or not punished as severely for similar ball inflation issues. Under the league constitution, the commissioner’s punishments of teams are final and not subject to review. Teams also contractually assent to not sue the league or one another, meaning the Patriots won’t be filing a lawsuit against Goodell or the NFL. This is a crucial legal distinction from when a player, like Rice or Peterson, faces a controversial punishment and with the help of the NFLPA pursues legal action.

http://www.si.com/nfl/2015/01/24/bi...-press-conference-new-england-patriots?page=2

VectorPrime · Mar 27, 2015

Says an article posted on January 24, when deflategate madness was in full swing and national pundits were calling for the Patriots to be kicked out of the Super Bowl. I don't put much stock into it.

PatSunday · Mar 27, 2015

supafly said:
The equipment guy/"ball boy" decided to stop to use the restroom, not before, not after---but during the very small window of about 2-5 minutes where his one and only job was to walk from the locker room to the sideline with a bag full of game day balls. That act itself may likely raise the level of suspicion enough to warrant a fine based on circumstantial evidence alone, especially if Goodell is using it to lay down the law for the future.

When there has been no scandal about this for 40 years in any major sport in the history of television, and you've got nothing to hide, there is no shame or guilt in going to the bathroom on the way to the your destination. If you're credible, the main concern is not letting the objects out of your sight to ruin your credibility and job, not mistrusting your own self. I'd rather think Wells will look into the credibility of the ball person, than a statement like "he was out of reach of any cameras for 90 seconds."

In fact, with the NFL firing an employee for purposely removing game balls in order to steal them in the same game, the league themselves actually set a very low standard. The fact he had done it before is even worse for the NFL. A guy who was out of camera's eye for 90 seconds for a valid reason -- in the bathroom -- is completely sane. He can't leave the balls outside, he has to watch them. Maybe a two-person rule could be enacted, but ball boys go to the bathroom all the time. This is not the first or last time a person in charge of securely transporting an object from point A to point B peed themselves out of nervousness and used the restroom.

Ross12 · Mar 27, 2015

Ivan said:
By rule Kensil has absolutely no authority to do anything with any game ball.

That's what I don't understand, it should really be that simple... Refs check game balls before game and say they're OK. Game begins, but before halftime someone says the game balls seem low. Refs check them and discover, why yes they are low. Investigator reviews footage to determine if anyone besides a referee did anything to any of the game balls. Kensil would be a non-referee and would therefore be unauthorized. Thus, the entire thing should be tossed, as the evidence was tampered with by someone who isn't authorized to touch it.

I know this isn't a court of law, but you don't send the defendant down to personally handle the prosecutor's evidence before a trial, do you? Whoops, the alleged killer accidentally dropped the blood sample on the floor and broke it! Ah well, we can just take their word for it that it definitely wasn't the victim's.

That sounds crazy, yet that's the same exact thing you'd be doing if you were to take Kensil at his word over the footballs.

QuantumMechanic · Mar 27, 2015

VectorPrime said:
Says an article posted on January 24, when deflategate madness was in full swing and national pundits were calling for the Patriots to be kicked out of the Super Bowl. I don't put much stock into it.

Because a lawyer and law professor is going to lie about what the NFL constitution says because reasons.

And you call my posts unrealistic!

VectorPrime · Mar 27, 2015

I'm not saying they're lying, I'm saying that the assumption that "Whenever the NFL issues a decision on Deflategate, the Patriots will accept it." is dumb since I am sure there are tons of backroom under the table stuff that owners can do to protest.

Patstopia · Mar 27, 2015

I would love for the league to punish the Colts and fire Kensil for this witch hunt.
But, in my heart I know that we will be fined. Not because we were trying to cheat. Not because the facts say we cheated. But because the league needs us to be punished.

They need us punished for winning when we are injured, for winning when we shouldn't. For making a mockery of the balanced schedule. For watching our expenses. For not diving in head first into free agency. For not taking the correct draft picks. The league needs us punished. They need a reason why we continue to win. It's because we filmed signals. It's because we deflate balls. It's because we stretch the boundaries of the league. We do it by trickery and cheating they tell each other. We do it because we are amoral commies, while the rest of the league are just regular American folks.

It's the same reason why nobody else will be punished. Jets.... come on, Woody's just enthusiastic. Piped in noise, boy's will be boys! Vikings warming up game balls, what characters. Rodger's likes his balls inflated...don't we all!

The league doesn't need to be right, doesn't need to have proof, doesn't need to worry about appeals. They are the final arbitrator, they are for all intent and purposes the king. And it's good to be the king!!!

RayClay · Mar 27, 2015

rlcarr said:
@supafly -- here's some stuff that SI's Michael McCann, an actual lawyer ("the founding director of the Sports and Entertainment Law Institute at the University of New Hampshire School of Law. He is also the distinguished visiting Hall of Fame Professor of Law at Mississippi College School of Law"), had to say about the NFL rules and procedure when the story originally broke:

http://www.si.com/nfl/2015/01/21/ne...tegate-investigation-bill-belichick-tom-brady

and

http://www.si.com/nfl/2015/01/24/bi...-press-conference-new-england-patriots?page=2

Good call on the first article. So the league has set it up that goodell could convict the team of witchcraft and they couldn't legally do anything about it. I'm sure that has to do with Al Davis suing the league, or whatever, but what an incredibly stupid setup.

unoriginal · Mar 27, 2015

This is a PR-driven league, we've seen before how punishments are decided primarily by PR impact (Spygate, Ray Rice, Adrian Peterson), and Deflategate was bad PR.

So the penalty is probably going to be pretty bad. And the League Office isn't going to penalize itself.

Ross12 · Mar 27, 2015

I know the rules say the team can't do anything, but this is the US of A, you can always do something. Kraft likely has many avenues available to him should the outcome be distasteful that don't necessarily violate the letter of the law... The question, of course, is if he would pursue those avenues.

With his connections I would imagine he could probably get the real story, and leak it to the media if he wanted to. They have all the footage, the game was played in their own stadium. If the League won't penalize themselves, Kraft could.

Soul_Survivor88 · Mar 27, 2015

Ross12 said:
I know the rules say the team can't do anything, but this is the US of A, you can always do something. Kraft likely has many avenues available to him should the outcome be distasteful that don't necessarily violate the letter of the law... The question, of course, is if he would pursue those avenues.

With his connections I would imagine he could probably get the real story, and leak it to the media if he wanted to. They have all the footage, the game was played in their own stadium. If the League won't penalize themselves, Kraft could.

Whether Kraft concedes or fights probably depends on the severity of the fine. But do you think Kraft should refuse to pay a fine, on the pure basis of principle?

Keep in mind, we just won the Super Bowl. Deflategate should've ended there. And I really don't want it to carry over into next season. I'm sure Kraft feels the same way, to some degree

patman52 · Mar 27, 2015

robertweathers said:
LOL.

The NFLPA advised Brady & the team not to discuss the balls w/ the league. This was back in January so not sure now?

my understanding was that they told the players not to address it with the medial

RayClay said:
Good call on the first article. So the league has set it up that goodell could convict the team of witchcraft and they couldn't legally do anything about it. I'm sure that has to do with Al Davis suing the league, or whatever, but what an incredibly stupid setup.

Again, this is ********, Al Davis could not sue the league and he did it multiple times and won. The league charter also has a provision where all teams will be treated equally i am sure. If the league breaks it contract with a club, the club can sue. Jones threatened to sue over serving pepsi and the league backed down.

RayClay · Mar 27, 2015

Ross12 said:
I know the rules say the team can't do anything, but this is the US of A, you can always do something. Kraft likely has many avenues available to him should the outcome be distasteful that don't necessarily violate the letter of the law... The question, of course, is if he would pursue those avenues.

With his connections I would imagine he could probably get the real story, and leak it to the media if he wanted to. They have all the footage, the game was played in their own stadium. If the League won't penalize themselves, Kraft could.

With a majority of the ownership jealous and or losers, there really isn't anything he could do while their commissioner is still in office. I guess they could raise a stink, but goodell could probably have them arrested Putin style and be within his legal rights [meaning the right to do anything if it involves a team].

I imagine vladimir is jealous of the power the stupid owners have given goodell, that's why he stole one of our rings.

Reiss expects Pats to be fined-deflategate? No farking way

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