How about trading Mayo to LB-starved 49ers

patchick said:

Yep, if the Raiders had just had their normal season, J.J. Watt would surely be a Patriot. I keep trying to forget that.

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Gah. It drives me absolutely nuts. Why, of all the years, did the Raiders pick that year to go 8-8 and not 2-14?

glm said:

Gronk is less effective after his injuries then in years past, eh? Let's look at those years. Before gronk got his injuries he played two full seasons and the first 10 games of 2012. Let's look at the stat lines for those years:

2010 - 42-546-10
2011 - 90-1327-17
2012 - 53-648-10

His average stat line per game extrapolated to a 16 game season looks like:
70-960-14

His stat line last year:
82-1124-12

So no, Gronk is still the same effective Gronk that he's always been.

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Sorry, stats don't provide context. Take a look at the film and tell me Gronk is as good, he's not, he's still the best TE in the league but he's not what he used to be. If we had pre-injury Gronk you'd see even better stats from him.

Snake Eyes said:

Sorry, stats don't provide context. Take a look at the film and tell me Gronk is as good, he's not, he's still the best TE in the league but he's not what he used to be. If we had pre-injury Gronk you'd see even better stats from him.

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How about you bring some actual facts to the table instead of "take a look at the film." Or you could fill us in on the context that you're speaking of.

Oh, did you look at film and come to the opposite conclusion? Silly me, it's not like coaches or professional scouts actually look at film to assess a player, they just go by stats

As for context, who does the defense have to worry about? Edelman really came online as well as LaFell, which means more attention goes to them as opposed to mainly scheming against Gronk, which will reduce his numbers.

Snake Eyes said:

Oh, did you look at film and come to the opposite conclusion? Silly me, it's not like coaches or professional scouts actually look at film to assess a player, they just go by stats

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Which coach or scout looked at the tape and said Gronk wasn't as effective?

As for context, who does the defense have to worry about? Edelman really came online as well as LaFell, which means more attention goes to them as opposed to mainly scheming against Gronk, which will reduce his numbers.

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This is crap, from 2010-2012 (btw the only time a team has scored over 500 points three years in a row other than the Rams from 1999-2001) the Patriots were filled with weapons. This notion that teams don't pay as much attention to Gronk is spectacularly wrong.

glm said:

Which coach or scout looked at the tape and said Gronk wasn't as effective?

This is crap, from 2010-2012 (btw the only time a team has scored over 500 points three years in a row other than the Rams from 1999-2001) the Patriots were filled with weapons. This notion that teams don't pay as much attention to Gronk is spectacularly wrong.

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I have an idea, why don't you look at some tape of Gronk before his injuries, tell me if he doesn't have better acceleration and doesn't look smoother when changing directions, please.

Snake Eyes said:

I have an idea, why don't you look at some tape of Gronk before his injuries, tell me if he doesn't have better acceleration and doesn't look smoother when changing directions, please.

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Snake- I want to agree with you as I do think multiple surgeries CAN impact an athlete's performance and ability. However, Gronk's statistical performance does not support your assertion. Asking people to look at the tape and say that he is not as "smooth" or "not as good acceleration" is unreasonable. If you want to try and quantify your point, the only reasonable way to determine if Gronk has slipped it to either have him perform all of his NFL Combine Drills or review his statistics. Since the former isn't happening, the latter is the only way.

In 2014 in the first 4 games, Gronk was targeted about 5 times a game. He averaged 3 catches for 37 yds and less than a TD a game. Clearly the team held him back as he was still coming back from his knee injury. From the Cinci game on, he averaged 10 targets, 7 catches, 97 yds and about a TD a game.

Over a 16 game season, that equates to 112 catches, 1552 yds and 16 TDs a year. Historic levels for sure.

Those numbers are also in-line with his 2011 performance (less targets though) from the 2012 season as he was coming off his surgically repaired ankle (which wasn't career-altering as he was playing/dancing on it during SB 46 and the team lightened his workload as they did at the start of his 2014 season.

You have to assume that if Gronk wasn't getting it done physically in 2014, he would not be able to produce at 2011-levels.

Gronk is still far and away the best TE in the league.

But anyone who thinks Gronk now is as fast and agile as he was pre torn ACL just doesn't know how a body works. Once you tear ligaments and have to replace them, it's never going to be like it was.

I'm glad this thread has gone off topic because the notion of trading Mayo was ridiculololous from the start.

condon84 said:

Gronk is still far and away the best TE in the league.

But anyone who thinks Gronk now is as fast and agile as he was pre torn ACL just doesn't know how a body works. Once you tear ligaments and have to replace them, it's never going to be like it was.

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So what about Adrian Peterson?

glm said:

So what about Adrian Peterson?

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Believe what you want to believe.

condon84 said:

Believe what you want to believe.

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It's not a matter of believing, I'm asking you. If you aren't as fast and agile as before, then why did Adrian Peterson have his best year by far (over 2000 rushing yards) the year after tearing his ACL? Same with Welker, two years after tearing his ACL he has his best season with 122 cathes, over 1500 receiving yards and 9 touchdowns.

condon84 said:

Gronk is still far and away the best TE in the league.

But anyone who thinks Gronk now is as fast and agile as he was pre torn ACL just doesn't know how a body works. Once you tear ligaments and have to replace them, it's never going to be like it was.

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You needed to tell BB this before he drafted Easely with the #1 pick

glm said:

It's not a matter of believing, I'm asking you. If you aren't as fast and agile as before, then why did Adrian Peterson have his best year by far (over 2000 rushing yards) the year after tearing his ACL? Same with Welker, two years after tearing his ACL he has his best season with 122 cathes, over 1500 receiving yards and 9 touchdowns.

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Because football is a team sport.

The main issue here is that you believe a knee with a replaced ligament (ACL) is exactly the same knee before the replacement. If you feel that way, then there's nothing I can really say that would convince you otherwise.

PatsWickedPissah said:

You needed to tell BB this before he drafted Easely with the #1 pick

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You can still be a great football player with a replaced ligament. That wasn't the point of my post. Context is key here.

condon84 said:

Because football is a team sport.

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Elaborate on this.

The main issue here is that you believe a knee with a replaced ligament (ACL) is exactly the same knee before the replacement.

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Please show me where I said that.

If you feel that way, then there's nothing I can really say that would convince you otherwise.

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Damn bro, I just asked a question. Can't even give me an answer.

condon84 said:

Because football is a team sport.

The main issue here is that you believe a knee with a replaced ligament (ACL) is exactly the same knee before the replacement. If you feel that way, then there's nothing I can really say that would convince you otherwise.

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There have been several doctors and players that have stated their ACL is stronger after surgery than before. This isn't always the case, but for some it is. Some people from birth don't have great ligaments. The surgery can be a scientific enhancement to attach it and grow it better.

Also, steroids.

condon84 said:

Gronk is still far and away the best TE in the league.

But anyone who thinks Gronk now is as fast and agile as he was pre torn ACL just doesn't know how a body works. Once you tear ligaments and have to replace them, it's never going to be like it was.

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Tell that to adrian peterson

Snake Eyes said:

Sorry, stats don't provide context. Take a look at the film and tell me Gronk is as good, he's not, he's still the best TE in the league but he's not what he used to be. If we had pre-injury Gronk you'd see even better stats from him.

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Someone is looking to get thrown out of the club.....

VrabelJr said:

There have been several doctors and players that have stated their ACL is stronger after surgery than before. This isn't always the case, but for some it is. Some people from birth don't have great ligaments. The surgery can be a scientific enhancement to attach it and grow it better.

Also, steroids.

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The loss of flexibility is the biggest issue with ligament replacement. That's where it will affect their speed and agility.

People keep mentioning Adrian Peterson. 90% of AP is still the most athletically gifted RB in the league. That guy is insanely gifted.

Gronk is in the same category for TEs.

It's like people can't critically think anymore lol.