How Have We Improved

billdog3484 · Mar 18, 2015

jmt57 said:
I posted this comment in the other "I don't care, I can't stand it!" thread (Is this the worst FA period for the Pats in the last 10 years?), and received not one single response.

Perhaps I'll get a taker in this thread.

For those that believe the Patriots have not done a good job in the personnel department thus far in free agency, let me ask this:

Keeping within the harsh realities of the NFL's salary cap, what do you propose that the team should have done differently thus far?

If for example you suggest that the Patriots should have re-signed Revis, then use the contract he signed and keep your version of the 2015 Patriots cap-compliant.

At that point we can compare any of our versions of what the team should have been with the current one, and debate which roster is better.

I commented about this earlier, but ill do it again.

Preferably, I would have signed Revis and let McCourty walked (if thats what would have to be done to get revis). However, I would not have any clue whatsoever if Revis would have ever come back to the Patriots or what he would have taken to come back. Assuming 3 years 48M with 16M cap hits for each. I want to be mad at the front office for not resigning revis, but we dont even know if he wanted to.

I definitely would have let Wilfork and Vereen walk. Browner probably would have to have been a cap casualty too. my preference would be to keep him but realistically, i dont know if that was possible. I have been under the assumption that we could extend Solder to lower his cap hit, most importantly in the next 2/3 years in line with the Revis contract.

With Revis, I'd be ok with going with Harmon/Ryan/TWilson and Chung at Safety. Secondary would be some combo of Revis, Dennard/Arrignton, HArmon/Ryan, Chung. I prefer that to whatever we have now.

Draft
1st Round DLine: from my understanding, there are a bunch of good d line. couple that with our ability to draft dlineman pretty well over the years, i think a d lineman in 1st round.
2nd Round: either G or RB. preferably guard unless we can pick one up. before chandler i thought Tight End. RB: there are a few guys who could be great that may fall.
3rd-7th. Best players. Trades into 2016

thats my preference.

Now that the cornerback market is essentially JAGs, i dont know what we could do. this was the source of my frustration. We picked up 2 already, although maybe they can be good, they have question marks for sure.

In the draft, we have been pretty awful selecting Corners. i am not confident in that route.

So to me, the only thing we could do is trade for a CB. But whom is available. I dont supposed anybody on this board has any idea, i dont.

The holes i see: CB, DL, G, Pass Catching RB.

we have a really good team still. I just am frustrated about our corners

billdog3484 · Mar 18, 2015

Ivan said:
I've never said I know anything more than anyone here I just post what i think and people can take it for what it is. When it comes to Belichick and the Patriots I think they have proven over and over and over again that they know exactly what they are doing, and whether I like or agree with the move I try to take that into consideration when I am commenting on it. I hate the way they handled Welker, made it very clear and had numerous arguments about it and then let it go when he signed with Denver. As it turned out I was dead wrong and Belichick actually had his real value right on the money. I wanted both Revis and Browner back, was bummed when Revis signed with the Jets but quickly realized that the Patriots has absolutely no chance because Woody Johnson was simply going to keep going up until the Patriots bowed out. The Browner release was puzzling but now it's really obvious they are going back to zone because they don't have the personnel to play man, so letting Browner go make sense. The problem now is that the market is way to high for the remaining CBs so they have to find other ways to address it. They have started by signing low cost vets, that's typical for Belichick but in no way means he will settle for sh.tty play from the secondary so my guess is he will keep working until it's fixed, like he does everything else. Had your posts been about what to do now this would have turned out different but in general venting threads never go well here.

ivan....i agree with you. i never said anything to the contrary.

and i will only post what i want. i will not be forced to pigeon hole the topics of my threads into what people prefer. i was/am very frustrated about our CB's. i vented. thats all that happened until i was attacked. you wanna read all the posts here, thats what youll see

jmt57 · Mar 18, 2015

I have to believe that if the Patriots could have signed Revis for three years/$48 million/$16 million APY then the Pats would have done that. Revis got $39 million guaranteed while making the same $48 million over three years, plus got two more years on top of that with his NYJ contract. In my opinion the Pats would have had to have done much better than 3/48 to get Revis to sign. I'm guessing $18 million per year ($2 million more but a shorter contract), with the same or more guaranteed.

If that is the case then that's an additional $7 million added to the cap ($18m for Revis, minus $6m cap # for McCourty, minus Revis' $5m dead money). Even going with 3/48 ($16m per year), that's still an additional $5 million on the cap to add Revis but lose McCourty.

Re-signing Solder would have helped, I agree. Perhaps the Patriots are hesitant and unsure if they want to commit long term to him, or if they want to see how he performs in 2015 - and then decide if they move on?

I just don't know if re-signing Revis was truly feasible.

billdog3484 · Mar 18, 2015

and other thing about it being ok for me to provide what i would do vs. venting.

what difference would what i say make to the decision making of the front office.

billdog3484 · Mar 18, 2015

jmt57 said:
I have to believe that if the Patriots could have signed Revis for three years/$48 million/$16 million APY then the Pats would have done that. Revis got $39 million guaranteed while making the same $48 million over three years, plus got two more years on top of that with his NYJ contract. In my opinion the Pats would have had to have done much better than 3/48 to get Revis to sign. I'm guessing $18 million per year ($2 million more but a shorter contract), with the same or more guaranteed.

If that is the case then that's an additional $12 million added to the cap ($18m for Revis, minus $6m cap # for McCourty). Even going with 3/48 ($16m per year), that's still an additional $10 million on the cap to add Revis but lose McCourty.

I just don't know if that's feasible.

i dont know either. thats why my original anger towards the patriots isnt as bad right now. bc for all we know they offered the numbers above or just couldnt get under the cap in any possible way.

that doesent make my frustration go away though

Danger Zone · Mar 18, 2015

jmt57 said:
I have to believe that if the Patriots could have signed Revis for three years/$48 million/$16 million APY then the Pats would have done that. Revis got $39 million guaranteed while making the same $48 million over three years, plus got two more years on top of that with his NYJ contract. In my opinion the Pats would have had to have done much better than 3/48 to get Revis to sign. I'm guessing $18 million per year ($2 million more but a shorter contract), with the same or more guaranteed.

If that is the case then that's an additional $7 million added to the cap ($18m for Revis, minus $6m cap # for McCourty, minus Revis' $5m dead money). Even going with 3/48 ($16m per year), that's still an additional $5 million on the cap to add Revis but lose McCourty.

Re-signing Solder would have helped, I agree. Perhaps the Patriots are hesitant and unsure if they want to commit long term to him, or if they want to see how he performs in 2015 - and then decide if they move on?

I just don't know if re-signing Revis was truly feasible.

I think those are fair numbers to guess at.

But its still well within the realm of the plausible that the Jets would have met and topped 18m and their own 39m guaranteed.

Ivan · Mar 18, 2015

billdog3484 said:
I commented about this earlier, but ill do it again.

Preferably, I would have signed Revis and let McCourty walked (if thats what would have to be done to get revis). However, I would not have any clue whatsoever if Revis would have ever come back to the Patriots or what he would have taken to come back. Assuming 3 years 48M with 16M cap hits for each. I want to be mad at the front office for not resigning revis, but we dont even know if he wanted to.

I definitely would have let Wilfork and Vereen walk. Browner probably would have to have been a cap casualty too. my preference would be to keep him but realistically, i dont know if that was possible. I have been under the assumption that we could extend Solder to lower his cap hit, most importantly in the next 2/3 years in line with the Revis contract.

With Revis, I'd be ok with going with Harmon/Ryan/TWilson and Chung at Safety. Secondary would be some combo of Revis, Dennard/Arrignton, HArmon/Ryan, Chung. I prefer that to whatever we have now.

Draft
1st Round DLine: from my understanding, there are a bunch of good d line. couple that with our ability to draft dlineman pretty well over the years, i think a d lineman in 1st round.
2nd Round: either G or RB. preferably guard unless we can pick one up. before chandler i thought Tight End. RB: there are a few guys who could be great that may fall.
3rd-7th. Best players. Trades into 2016

thats my preference.

Now that the cornerback market is essentially JAGs, i dont know what we could do. this was the source of my frustration. We picked up 2 already, although maybe they can be good, they have question marks for sure.

In the draft, we have been pretty awful selecting Corners. i am not confident in that route.

So to me, the only thing we could do is trade for a CB. But whom is available. I dont supposed anybody on this board has any idea, i dont.

The holes i see: CB, DL, G, Pass Catching RB.

we have a really good team still. I just am frustrated about our corners

I have to take off but will come back to this later. All I can say is that this would have made for a much better thread, so, good post.

Ivan · Mar 18, 2015

Danger Zone said:
I think those are fair numbers to guess at.

But its still well within the realm of the plausible that the Jets would have met and topped 18m and their own 39m guaranteed.

I'm of the opinion that there was no number the Patriots could have offered that the Jets would not have topped. Once Woody tampered with Revis it was a fine deal. All that's left is who the Paid should take at the six spot. SUCK ON THAT JETFANS!

Danger Zone · Mar 18, 2015

Ivan said:
I'm of the opinion that there was no number the Parrots could have offered that the Jets would not have typed. Once Woody tampered with Revis it was a fine deal. All that's left is who the Paid should take at the six spot. SUCK ON THAT JETFANS!

Where I agree with you is that it seems that the signs are definitely pointing to the Jets wanting Revis back at almost any cost.

The foible being spouted by all the Internet GMs is that we could have had Revis for the current Jet's contract.

PatsFanInVa · Mar 18, 2015

jmt57 said:
I posted this comment in the other "I don't care, I can't stand it!" thread (Is this the worst FA period for the Pats in the last 10 years?), and received not one single response.

Perhaps I'll get a taker in this thread.

For those that believe the Patriots have not done a good job in the personnel department thus far in free agency, let me ask this:

Keeping within the harsh realities of the NFL's salary cap, what do you propose that the team should have done differently thus far?

If for example you suggest that the Patriots should have re-signed Revis, then use the contract he signed and keep your version of the 2015 Patriots cap-compliant.

At that point we can compare any of our versions of what the team should have been with the current one, and debate which roster is better.

Let me play Devil's advocate (although I believe that the Pats have done as the Pats have done this FA, and that, over decades, that has proven to be a good thing to do...)

The correct measurement would have to include long contracts into the out years, judgment calls about players that are not yet on the radar, guesses about future salary caps, etc. That's because you can make all kinds of mock contracts up that would have gotten the job done and kept us under the cap for 2015.

That's why the "good vs. bad free agency" question mimicks theology for me: Is it a good move because the Pats make it, or do the Pats make the move because it is good?

They maintained their discipline and stuck to their ideas despite what fans would think, what ESPN would think, etc. It's a great luxury. In some cities that can be the beginning of the end for a so-so coach. I imagine a conflicted smile creeping across Kraft's face as he thinks "well, it's not like it's Troy Brown we're losing here..."

IllegalContact · Mar 19, 2015

Wheelman said:
Considering they already beat the "greatest defense since the 2000 Ravens" I'm going to have to give your joke a fail. So sorry!

ok.....then maybe just dobson

VOODOOZF · Mar 20, 2015

50-yard-line said:
I guess it depends on your definition of "significantly," but I simply don't agree with your characterization.

I don't think Wilfork is a huge loss to this team. In fact, i think their interior D-line is going to be better this year than it was last year (still would like Ellis or Rubin to add to the mix). There are so many good DTs int eh draft and still a couple of run-stuffers out there. Vince was as good a NT as you could want, but there were times last year when I saw him getting no push at all against a single blocker. 34 post-Achilles is a bad thing. I give him tremendous credit for gutting it out last year and playing acceptably, but they can upgrade there cheaper than what he got in Houston.

I also think Easley will certainly contribute this year in a very sizable way.

They lost Ayers and Casillas and replaced them with Mayo and Sheard - huge upgrade 9and I really liked Ayers, but Sheard is a much better DE).

They're already better on offense than they were last year, or they will be if they find even a serviceable 3rd-down back. Chandler is a huge get, Stork and Fleming have a year under their belts, the OL coach has a year with the guys - they won't have to spend the first half of the season experimenting with the OL. I want to see if Cannon can move to guard with a full preseason there, for example, or if Fleming can - and since they don't have many big holes, there are a lot fo good interior OL in the draft, as well.

Amendola wasn't healthy until haflway through last season, and it took a while, but he and Brady seem to be back on the up-and-up. Says a lot that he was willing to restructure, too. he has bought in. That's a solid #3 and a great backup for JE. Tim Wright will get a whole off-season in the system - guy did pretty well last year, ya know?

I'm hoping Gibson can make that comeback from a bad injury. And I'm confident that everyone here has soured way too quickly on Aaron Dobson. The guy can play.

Obviously we're a lot weaker in the secondary without Revis (and without the complimentary Browner), but let's keep some perspective. Flacco threw for 4 tds against our great secondary last year in the playoffs, and Seattle almost put up a 30-burger on us. I think Arrington is a great slot corner. I like Ryan and Dennard and am pretty sure Butler has the goods. McCourty is great back there, and Chung contributes in lots of ways. heck, ever Tayvon Wilson put on a few huge hits in the playoffs - watch the Baltimore game.

you're all acting like we have NO ONE, OMG, back there, when in fact, if half these guys were ont eh FA market, you'd be screaming for us to go get them. I can hear it now.

"Dennard...yeah, he was great his first year, then got hurt. Could be a great reclamation project."
"Arrington, man, did you see what he did to Hilton? Sign the beast!"
"That Butler kid...omg, what instincts! How did they find this kid!"

You know, what you see most of other teams are HIGHLIGHTS, not the common warts. The grass isn't greener.

You bring up several valid points. The addition of Mayo and Sheard will without question be an upgrade. I do value Wilfolk's contribution a little more than you do. That said I agree he can be replaced to a degree where the team could still win it all.

My major concern is the secondary...D Revis is virtually irreplaceable. Much like Tom Brady makes everyone on offense better, Revis does the same for the defense. I fear the Pat's won't have a sufficient replacement for him and we will go back to the days of 2005-2013 when we couldn't get off the field on third down...Hopefully the Pat's can make an impact trade (I don't see a rookie coming in + making a difference + all the impact fa's are gone at this point) to bring in a #1 cb to anchor the secondary.

rochrist · Mar 20, 2015

VOODOOZF said:
You bring up several valid points. The addition of Mayo and Sheard will without question be an upgrade. I do value Wilfolk's contribution a little more than you do. That said I agree he can be replaced to a degree where the team could still win it all.

My major concern is the secondary...D Revis is virtually irreplaceable. Much like Tom Brady makes everyone on offense better, Revis does the same for the defense. I fear the Pat's won't have a sufficient replacement for him and we will go back to the days of 2005-2013 when we couldn't get off the field on third down...Hopefully the Pat's can make an impact trade (I don't see a rookie coming in + making a difference + all the impact fa's are gone at this point) to bring in a #1 cb to anchor the secondary.

You know, I understand as well as anybody how truly great a player Revis is, but I have to point out, he never got the Jets to the SB. They got to the AFC championship game twice and he wasn't the difference maker that got them over the hump. Conversely, 48 out of 49 teams have won the SB without Revis. So, there has to be /some/ hope.

RIpats88 · Mar 20, 2015

you know, I may not like Belichecks formula...and have been upset several times seeing them let players go..

but overall whatever he does it works...9AFC championship games, 6superbowl appearances, 4 superbowls won. 4 straight afccg appearances. its hard to argue with that success.

Patriots will still go out and win 12-13 games next year and win a first round Bye IMO.

kennyb · Mar 20, 2015

Revis needed to go. Don't need to have a huge risk on a guy like that. If he was playing for reasonable money, then sure, keep him, but he gave them no choice. Sayonara. And say hello to BRADLEY FLETCHER. That's right!

They'll draft a rookie or two as a CB and he'll do just fine. As will a healed up Dennard.

VOODOOZF · Mar 20, 2015

kennyb said:
Revis needed to go. Don't need to have a huge risk on a guy like that. If he was playing for reasonable money, then sure, keep him, but he gave them no choice. Sayonara. And say hello to BRADLEY FLETCHER. That's right!

They'll draft a rookie or two as a CB and he'll do just fine. As will a healed up Dennard.

I disagree. A rookie or a guy like Fletcher will not be "just fine"

I totally understand the salary cap ramifications of keeping Revis. That said, if they simply plug in a journeyman cb or a rookie they will get the same results they got from 2005-2013. This is a passing league. In my opinion a lockdown qb is the most important position on the field with the exception of qb.

We had nearly a decade of not being able to get off the field on third down. In that time we won zero championships. The Patriots brought in elite talent at cb this year and they won the Super Bowl. Is this merely a coincidence?

The jury is still out on this off season. I fully expect BB to make a Talib like trade and shore up the secondary at some point before the NFL trade deadline. What they have on the roster at cb right now is not good enough to win the Super Bowl.

Bruins29 · Mar 20, 2015

RIpats88 said:
you know, I may not like Belichecks formula...and have been upset several times seeing them let players go..

but overall whatever he does it works...9AFC championship games, 6superbowl appearances, 4 superbowls won. 4 straight afccg appearances. its hard to argue with that success.

Patriots will still go out and win 12-13 games next year and win a first round Bye IMO.

So you dont like a formula that always works. You would prefer he do it the way you think it should be done which probably wouldn't work as well.

meatface · Mar 21, 2015

If you are *****ing less than 2 months are the SB then you should just become a jets fan so you can have something real to cry about. Also our pass rush is absolutely going to be better next season so that's how

rochrist · Mar 21, 2015

VOODOOZF said:
I disagree. A rookie or a guy like Fletcher will not be "just fine"

I totally understand the salary cap ramifications of keeping Revis. That said, if they simply plug in a journeyman cb or a rookie they will get the same results they got from 2005-2013. This is a passing league. In my opinion a lockdown qb is the most important position on the field with the exception of qb.

We had nearly a decade of not being able to get off the field on third down. In that time we won zero championships. The Patriots brought in elite talent at cb this year and they won the Super Bowl. Is this merely a coincidence?

The jury is still out on this off season. I fully expect BB to make a Talib like trade and shore up the secondary at some point before the NFL trade deadline. What they have on the roster at cb right now is not good enough to win the Super Bowl.

Nobody thinks Fletcher will be the starting CB on opening day. He's a depth signing/reclaimation project.

mgteich · Mar 21, 2015

OFFENSE
I think that it will be better.

We should be better at WR with the additions and Amendola for a full season, and perhaps even Dobson.

The OL will be at least as good with Stork and Fleming having a year of experience. A vet and an early round rookie OG are likely to be added.

We don't know at running back, but we've lost Vereeniging and added Cadet and Gaffney. Gray and White have a year of experience.

We are clearly better at TE with the addition of Chandler.

DEFENSE

The DL is likely to be fine with a healthy Siliga. We'll add someone at DT to Siliga, Branch, Jones and Easley. The DE has Sheard in place of Ayers.

The LB should be better with Mayo back.

The safeties are back.

The schemes for the corners will change. As with the OL last year this might take a bit of experimentation.

BOTTOM LINE

We're two weeks into free agency and we have only one real concern, I expect a trade for a corner. We shouldn't complain when it costs a first or second rounder and six million a year.

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