Lets all be honest about the whole situation (revis)( Mccourty) (Browner)

JackBauer said:

Using tackles to evaluate free safety play. I don't think further comment is really necessary.

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Right there with you.

I am a huge McCourty fan. If it came down to Revis or McCourty, I was in the McCourty camp. McCourty is elite and when it comes down to it more versatile than Thomas. At any time McCourty can be a full time cb and has shown excellent special team skills. Does Thomas have the kr/pr skills that McCourty does? Give him some respect.

Fixit said:

And, yet, the best coach in football saw fit to pay him as an elite safety. Weird.

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Bill often has his guys, the ones he chooses to give the big contracts because they fall in line with his system the most, see Mayo, Mankins, Wilfork, etc..

That doesn't automatically make them elite. He has a history of paying guys like this while letting the flashier play makers walk, this isn't exactly a new thing around here..

Im also not sure he's a top 5 safety. Top 10 absolutely, but I think guys like Weddle, Thomas, Berry, Chancellor, and Bird all make a good argument to be ahead of him.

FreeTedWilliams said:

until you look at the stats.. he is 117th! in tackles last year. Let's see how many Free Safeties had better years last year......

Tackles Sacks Passes Defended INTs FF (forced/recovered)
McCourty 68 0 6 2 1
Eric Weddle 114 0 8 1 2
Charles Woodson 112 1 8 4 1
Michael Griffin 112 3 5 2 0
Ryan Clark 102 .5 3 1 2
Earl Thomas 97 0 6 2 1
Reggie Nelson 94 1.5 12 4 0
Ha Ha Dix 94 1 6 1 1
Rashad Johnson 93 1 8 4 1
Harrison Smith 93 3 9 5 1
Josh Evans 90 0 2 0 2
Kendrick Lewis 82 0 6 4 4
Dashon Golston 81 0 1 0 1
Malcolm Jenkins 80 0 15 3 3
Dwight Lowery 79 1 5 2 3
Aaron Williams 76 0 5 1 0
Mike Mitchell 71 0 3 0 2

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I'd use rushing yards to evaluate a quarterback before I'd use tackles as the sign of a free safety's worth.

Here are my thoughts. Browner is a press corner who can be beat with speed on occasion so needs to be baby sat a bit. Revis allows you to do that cause he does not need help so McCourty can shade to the other side.

Without Revis you are probably not going to play much press anyway and even if you did McCourty will probably not be able to shade to Browner cause the other guy would need more help and it would end badly

In short Browner needs a Revis/Sherman with good safety help to get the most out of him. If forced into zone (which he would be) with limited help he would not be half as effective.

McCourty and Revis are more scheme versatile than Browner.

I think that whomever we trot out there will need safety help, might as well have Browner

Nunchucks said:

I think that whomever we trot out there will need safety help, might as well have Browner

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No, because he was particularly prone to getting burned or flagged. Revis leaving made Browner a liability.

Bartmac36 said:

Bill often has his guys, the ones he chooses to give the big contracts because they fall in line with his system the most, see Mayo, Mankins, Wilfork, etc..

That doesn't automatically make them elite. He has a history of paying guys like this while letting the flashier play makers walk, this isn't exactly a new thing around here..

Im also not sure he's a top 5 safety. Top 10 absolutely, but I think guys like Weddle, Thomas, Berry, Chancellor, and Bird all make a good argument to be ahead of him.

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He has a history of paying non-elite players elite money? Do tell.

Sicilian said:

I'd use rushing yards to evaluate a quarterback before I'd use tackles as the sign of a free safety's worth.

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So how can you say he is an "elite" FS? He is barley in the top ten in any category! So if you are not in the top five in tackles, sacks, passes defended, interceptions, fumbles forced, and fumbles recovered, what exactly are you basing your evaluation on?

Our defensive scouting personnel stinks! Some defenses can handle a loss like revis. Load up on the dl. That would be my plan.

FreeTedWilliams said:

So how can you say he is an "elite" FS? He is barley in the top ten in any category! So if you are not in the top five in tackles, sacks, passes defended, interceptions, fumbles forced, and fumbles recovered, what exactly are you basing your evaluation on?

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Neither is Revis, but we all agree he's great. I wonder why that is?

Bartmac36 said:

Bill often has his guys, the ones he chooses to give the big contracts because they fall in line with his system the most, see Mayo, Mankins, Wilfork, etc..

That doesn't automatically make them elite. He has a history of paying guys like this while letting the flashier play makers walk, this isn't exactly a new thing around here..

Im also not sure he's a top 5 safety. Top 10 absolutely, but I think guys like Weddle, Thomas, Berry, Chancellor, and Bird all make a good argument to be ahead of him.

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So how do you rationalize other teams' willingness to pay MORE than the Patriots for McCourty's services?

Fixit said:

He has a history of paying non-elite players elite money? Do tell.

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That's not what I said. I said he gives big contracts to guys he likes and that DO THEIR JOB, and that that doesn't necessarily make them elite. My case and point being, like I said, Mayo. Or even Wilfork, who was a great run stuffing Nose Tackle and the embodiment of the Patriot Way, but who wasn't the same type of disruptive force as a guy like Ngata or Geno Atkins, or a Suh or McCoy.

FreeTedWilliams said:

So how can you say he is an "elite" FS? He is barley in the top ten in any category! So if you are not in the top five in tackles, sacks, passes defended, interceptions, fumbles forced, and fumbles recovered, what exactly are you basing your evaluation on?

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Yeah, Revis didn't finish in the Top 5 of any of those, either. He's a bum.

McCourty was a top 5 safety before Revis was here. He was a great signing.

Bartmac36 said:

That's not what I said. I said he gives big contracts to guys he likes and that DO THEIR JOB, and that that doesn't necessarily make them elite. My case and point being, like I said, Mayo. Or even Wilfork, who was a great run stuffing Nose Tackle and the embodiment of the Patriot Way, but who wasn't the same type of disruptive force as a guy like Ngata or Geno Atkins, or a Suh or McCoy.

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So he pays guys he likes more than they're worth. Got it.

JackBauer said:

So how do you rationalize other teams' willingness to pay MORE than the Patriots for McCourty's services?

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He's a good/solid player, with a glowing letter of recommendation from the greatest head coach of all time, and there's no other good safeties on the market, therefore his value gets over-inflated.

If McCourty had been a free agent at the same time as guys like Eric Berry or Weddle or the Seattle safety duo, McCourty woulda been the fifth most sought after safety of those five IMHO.

FreeTedWilliams said:

Tell me you wouldn't take either one of those guys over McCourty!

McCourty is being paid the same as Thomas and much more than Chancellor.

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You just said with Revis and Browner, we could have Tavon Wilson back there and it wouldn't matter. Well, Seattle had Sherman and Browner. Why did they bother paying safeties in the first place? They don't really matter with those two in front, right?

Fixit said:

So he pays guys he likes more than they're worth. Got it.

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That's actually my point exactly, lol. I know you're being sarcastic, but that's how I see it. That's how all the PFW guys see it too, so I'm not exactly breaking new ground here.

FreeTedWilliams said:

until you look at the stats.. he is 117th! in tackles last year. Let's see how many Free Safeties had better years last year......

Tackles Sacks Passes Defended INTs FF (forced/recovered)
McCourty 68 0 6 2 1
Eric Weddle 114 0 8 1 2
Charles Woodson 112 1 8 4 1
Michael Griffin 112 3 5 2 0
Ryan Clark 102 .5 3 1 2
Earl Thomas 97 0 6 2 1
Reggie Nelson 94 1.5 12 4 0
Ha Ha Dix 94 1 6 1 1
Rashad Johnson 93 1 8 4 1
Harrison Smith 93 3 9 5 1
Josh Evans 90 0 2 0 2
Kendrick Lewis 82 0 6 4 4
Dashon Golston 81 0 1 0 1
Malcolm Jenkins 80 0 15 3 3
Dwight Lowery 79 1 5 2 3
Aaron Williams 76 0 5 1 0
Mike Mitchell 71 0 3 0 2

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There are an aweful lot of in the box strong safeties on that list. I wonder why that might be...

Are you seriously using tackles as a way to say that a single deep safety isn't good?