Edelman fake slant spin move

Ken Canin · Mar 1, 2015

From the point of view of conservation of angular momentum, Edelman must of course be pivoting off the right foot. But it doesn't look like it visually to me, it certainly doesn't "clearly" look like it. In fact, replaying it, it looks like he's levitating. Like, you know, a good moonwalk. What's letting him do that anyway? Is he super-strong or something? Lot of strong people in that league.

At any rate, do you at least agree with my points of comparison of Edelman's pivot to the Amendola pivot that someone posted earlier? (that is, Edelman's is quicker, he plants both feet more, he doesn't have as long a pivot "introduction" or "follow-up" where he only part of his body is pivoting, he keeps his body and feet aligned together more). My post was responding to the person who said this was an Amendola play, and I don't really concur.

If you have a play since 2009 where someone else does this I'd be really happy to look at it.

Marinlik · Mar 1, 2015

Ken Canin said:
From the point of view of conservation of angular momentum, Edelman must of course be pivoting off the right foot. But it doesn't look like it visually to me, it certainly doesn't "clearly" look like it. In fact, replaying it, it looks like he's levitating. Like, you know, a good moonwalk. What's letting him do that anyway? Is he super-strong or something? Lot of strong people in that league.

At any rate, do you at least agree with my points of comparison of Edelman's pivot to the Amendola pivot that someone posted earlier? (that is, Edelman's is quicker, he plants both feet more, he doesn't have as long a pivot "introduction" or "follow-up" where he only part of his body is pivoting, he keeps his body and feet aligned together more). My post was responding to the person who said this was an Amendola play, and I don't really concur.

If you have a play since 2009 where someone else does this I'd be really happy to look at it.

I never said that this was an Amendola play. I said that this was a pivot route, and that it is one of the main routes in our route tree. I posted the Amendola video just to show that we have used it before, with other receivers than Edelman. To show that this isn't some special route that hasn't been seen before.

The video quality sucks, but here you have Welker running the pivot in the left slot. You have to remember that a reason that the routes look a bit difference is that Edelman did it in the endzone against press coverage, which shortens the route. And secondly, different receivers can take different steps for a route. That's one of the things that differentiate how good different receivers are at route running, but that doesn't change what type of route it is.

Ken Canin · Mar 2, 2015

I'm not sure what or whom I'm seeing on this video. It looks like I'm watching a scrambled cable channel from the '80s viewed from inside of a washing machine in a car wash.

Do you have the game and play this occurs?

Note that plays since 2009 are much more useful to me as I can view those on game rewind.

Also n.b. final word of thread title: I'm particularly interested in the move per se.

Marinlik · Mar 2, 2015

Ken Canin said:
I'm not sure what or whom I'm seeing on this video. It looks like I'm watching a scrambled cable channel from the '80s viewed from inside of a washing machine in a car wash.

Do you have the game and play this occurs?

Note that plays since 2009 are much more useful to me as I can view those on game rewind.

Also n.b. final word of thread title: I'm particularly interested in the move per se.

It looks to be the 2007 seasons super bowl. If you focus on Welker you can see that it's the same route. He is in the slot to the left on the first play. It's not the best video, but you can see the routes that are ran.

I don't really know any specific moments of when we have used the route, because it's a pretty usual route for us, so not something I keep track of.

PatsFanSince74 · Mar 2, 2015

The Brandon Five said:
Isn't that allowed within five yards?

Watching it again it looks like Simon got away with hands to the face.

One of the things I really liked about the SB (aside from the outcome) was that the officials "let them play."

Each team had a legitimate gripe on a call that should have been made: the Pats on the "Running into" which should have been "Roughing" the kicker that would have given them a first down and the Seahawks on Butler's trip of Kearse on a third down play that would have given them a first down. Otherwise, the officials seemed to call all the obvious stuff and let the close stuff that would probably call during the season go.

Oswlek · Mar 2, 2015

Ken Canin said:
From the point of view of conservation of angular momentum, Edelman must of course be pivoting off the right foot. But it doesn't look like it visually to me, it certainly doesn't "clearly" look like it. In fact, replaying it, it looks like he's levitating. Like, you know, a good moonwalk. What's letting him do that anyway? Is he super-strong or something? Lot of strong people in that league.

I'm still have no idea what you are seeing. I see no such superhuman movement in Edelman's TD, just a guy running a nice route.

Ken Canin said:
At any rate, do you at least agree with my points of comparison of Edelman's pivot to the Amendola pivot that someone posted earlier? (that is, Edelman's is quicker, he plants both feet more, he doesn't have as long a pivot "introduction" or "follow-up" where he only part of his body is pivoting, he keeps his body and feet aligned together more). My post was responding to the person who said this was an Amendola play, and I don't really concur.

No, I don't agree. Edelman is definitely quicker than Danny, which accounts for some of the difference, but it is mostly due to angles and coverage. As I said earlier, Danny had to sell the in cut because the defender hadn't taken the bite yet. This forced him to need a much more strenuous cutback at a wider angle. By contrast, Julian's defender bit on the slant right away so it was a lot easier for him. The fact that he pushed off aided him a little more.

Ken Canin said:
I'm not sure what or whom I'm seeing on this video. It looks like I'm watching a scrambled cable channel from the '80s viewed from inside of a washing machine in a car wash.

Do you have the game and play this occurs?

Note that plays since 2009 are much more useful to me as I can view those on game rewind.

Also n.b. final word of thread title: I'm particularly interested in the move per se.

It's blurry, but clear. If you can't make things out from the initial play, they show a close up replay of the route at the 10 second mark.

The long and short of it is this, Julian ran a terrific route, but it wasn't superhuman and it wasn't anything the team hasn't been doing for years.

IllegalContact · Mar 2, 2015

rlcarr said:
I disagree. The rules for DPI and OPI are different. DPI rules only apply only once the ball has been thrown. OPI rules apply from the moment of the snap. See Rule 8 Section 5 Article 1.

I believe the moment the defender makes contact in the 5 yard zone, what edelman did was perfectly legal and will never get called. the reaction of Simon is one of finger pointing after getting freshly roasted

Ken Canin · Mar 6, 2015

Oswlek said:
I'm still have no idea what you are seeing. I see no such superhuman movement in Edelman's TD, just a guy running a nice route....

It's blurry, but clear. If you can't make things out from the initial play, they show a close up replay of the route at the 10 second mark.

The long and short of it is this, Julian ran a terrific route

Maybe I'm seeing chimeras. But I have the advantage of looking at this in good resolution from rewind, not the blurry youtube captures. Many of the posts on this thread have in fact talked about the ROUTE, which is visible in the youtube versions, not the MOVE, which is the title of this thread and has to do with the footwork. The footwork is impossible to see in some of these youtube things.

That said, one of the posted videos, , the one you posted at just about 11 seconds, just as Edelman is pivoting - that's what looks odd to me. You can see both feet planted, then he slightly twists his right foot there, then he kind of seems to float and pivot midair (view maximized, not in the embedded thumbnail of course). Like I say, it reminded me a bit of moonwalking where the body motion doesn't seem to correspond to the foot motion. That's also why I wanted video of other players doing this move to compare.

Batman · Mar 6, 2015

Ken Canin said:
, the one you posted at just about 11 seconds, just as Edelman is pivoting - that's what looks odd to me. You can see both feet planted, then he slightly twists his right foot there, then he kind of seems to float and pivot midair (view maximized, not in the embedded thumbnail of course). Like I say, it reminded me a bit of moonwalking where the body motion doesn't seem to correspond to the foot motion. That's also why I wanted video of other players doing this move to compare.

No you can't he had his feet very far apart plants and pivots on the right foot then taps the left foot and drive off the right he never plants the left foot. This is more to do with body control than his foot work, You can have great footwork and will still stumble doing this if you don't have the body control to allow you to do this.

Oswlek · Mar 6, 2015

Ken Canin said:
Maybe I'm seeing chimeras. But I have the advantage of looking at this in good resolution from rewind, not the blurry youtube captures. Many of the posts on this thread have in fact talked about the ROUTE, which is visible in the youtube versions, not the MOVE, which is the title of this thread and has to do with the footwork. The footwork is impossible to see in some of these youtube things.

That said, one of the posted videos, , the one you posted at just about 11 seconds, just as Edelman is pivoting - that's what looks odd to me. You can see both feet planted, then he slightly twists his right foot there, then he kind of seems to float and pivot midair (view maximized, not in the embedded thumbnail of course). Like I say, it reminded me a bit of moonwalking where the body motion doesn't seem to correspond to the foot motion. That's also why I wanted video of other players doing this move to compare.

That isn't what happens at all. I already explained what Edelman did there, and you don't need good resolution. He pivots on his right foot and just taps his left for balance. There is nothing unusual about it and all the other vids posted are perfectly fine examples of the same route. It is the amount of space and the coverage that dictate how it was done more than greatness on Edelman's part.

If you are looking for a second element to the pivot, it isn't his left foot, it is his left arm. Here is the link starting at the pivot point and you can clearly see Julian pivoting on one foot with a left arm shove to accelerate the spin.

EDIT: Apparently the forum overrides links with a different start time than zero. But just drag the cursor slowly through the beginning of the move and you'll see what I mean.

The long and short of it is, yes, you are seeing chimeras.

Ken Canin · Mar 6, 2015

Maybe it is the left arm. It's occluded in the closeup. That wouldn't be a chimera though - that would be imparting angular momentum from an occluded portion of the closeup.

That would explain why the move looks otherworldly: the momentum isn't coming "solely" from the feet.

If correct, this hypothesis would contradict all the other posters who say the move is just like Welker's or Amendola's: there's a new element.

Oswlek · Mar 6, 2015

Ken Canin said:
Maybe it is the left arm. It's occluded in the closeup. That wouldn't be a chimera though - that would be imparting angular momentum from an occluded portion of the closeup.

That would explain why the move looks otherworldly: the momentum isn't coming "solely" from the feet.

If correct, this hypothesis would contradict all the other posters who say the move is just like Welker's or Amendola's: there's a new element.

It doesn't contradict anything because everyone has posted those vids with the stipulation that actual technique will be dictated by the coverage. It may not have been precisely what you are looking for, but you've parsed this thing so fine that you can't reasonably expect anyone to remember such specific body movement.

Not that I mind watching that play a bunch of times to keep up with the thread!

Marinlik · Mar 6, 2015

Oswlek said:
That isn't what happens at all. I already explained what Edelman did there, and you don't need good resolution. He pivots on his right foot and just taps his left for balance. There is nothing unusual about it and all the other vids posted are perfectly fine examples of the same route. It is the amount of space and the coverage that dictate how it was done more than greatness on Edelman's part.

If you are looking for a second element to the pivot, it isn't his left foot, it is his left arm. Here is the link starting at the pivot point and you can clearly see Julian pivoting on one foot with a left arm shove to accelerate the spin.

The long and short of it is, yes, you are seeing chimeras.

This was pretty much was I was going to write. If you really want to see the footwork, which is as you describe it, then use Youtubes slow motion feature. Then you see that Edelman only taps his left foot for balance mid pivot, and doesn't push off with it before he has turned completely and runs for the sideline.

I think the problem is that the OP decided from the get go that this was a special route(asking if it's been used before when it's one of our bread and butter routes), and therefor looks for and sees things that aren't really there.

The press coverage dictated the use of his hands. The reason Welker didn't use it in the video I posted was that it would have been flagged(and really no good reason to use it) as the defender didn't press him, and he ran the route deeper as they wheren't in the end zone.

goheels22002 · Mar 6, 2015

Great reading the last few posts about "the move." Looks to me like standard footwork you teach basketball players to use when getting open in the post. Edelman is already leaning back to his left when he plants his right foot to pivot to where Brady is already throwing the ball to his outside shoulder. His quickness is remarkable, as was Welker's.

On the question of offensive pass interference, nothing in this rule seems to suggest Edelman can't fight for position: http://www.nfl.com/rulebook/useofhands

Good thread. It's fun to watch that play over and over.

Edelman fake slant spin move

Ken Canin

Practice Squad Player

Marinlik

Rotational Player and Threatening Starter's Job

Ken Canin

Practice Squad Player

Marinlik

Rotational Player and Threatening Starter's Job

PatsFanSince74

PatsFans.com Supporter

Oswlek

Veteran Starter w/Big Long Term Deal

IllegalContact

PatsFans.com Retired Jersey Club

Ken Canin

Practice Squad Player

Batman

Third String But Playing on Special Teams

Oswlek

Veteran Starter w/Big Long Term Deal

Ken Canin

Practice Squad Player

Oswlek

Veteran Starter w/Big Long Term Deal

Marinlik

Rotational Player and Threatening Starter's Job

goheels22002

PatsFans.com Supporter

Similar threads