Houston Taxpayers To Pay For Stadium Upgrades that Kraft Pays On His Own Here

BradyFTW! · Feb 27, 2015

mgteich said:
Apparently folks here are well up on the politics and economics of stadium building in Houston. Yes, we COULD limit team ownership to those billionaires who are willing to use their own money to build and upgrade stadiums. The NFL is NOT going to do that. The NFL leaves open the option of having cities support their teams financially withe tax breaks and direct funding. There are many models.

I think it is easy for those in NE to say that other cities shouldn't contribute to stadiums. After all, we have a billionaire who uses his own money, and we have the most successful franchise in the NFL. Perhaps if one of these ingredients were missing then those in NE might also be willing to support a stadium.
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But maybe not. After all, folks in Boston were willing to allow the team to move to Hartford or St Louis. We have Kraft to thank. Perhaps other cities are not so willing to let their team leave.

Packer fans are probably the most rabidly loyal local fanbase in the NFL. And even they only passed a referendum to increase sales tax for Lambeau upgrades by a 53-47 margin. And that was 15 years ago, before the whole "stadium costs pay for themselves by stimulating the local economy" argument was thoroughly and repeatedly debunked.

This isn't a politicized issue, other than where you're maybe trying to make it one. When it's left up to the voters, they've made their opinion clear: they do not want to hand their tax money to billionaires. I live in Los Angeles, and we've been without a team for ~20 years precisely because of an unwillingness to put tax money toward a stadium. I'm confident that Boston similarly has its priorities and general common sense in order. They were willing to let Kraft leave last time he threatened to, after all.

mgteich · Feb 27, 2015

shmessy said:
Boston is not so desperate. In fact, Boston told the NFL to take it or leave it.

Yup, NE fans and taxpayers did exactly that. If it cost the taxpayers anything, we were apparently fine with the team moving to St. Louis.

mgteich · Feb 27, 2015

shmessy said:
I certainly understand the desire to have a team in one's city, but some of these cities are economic hostages.....they dole out money to their team and their team leaves them anyway.

Maybe a city or a region should work on becoming an economic powerhouse first and then let the NFL fall over itself to move a franchise in. Indianapolis, St Louis, Cincinatti and Oakland are disposable napkins.....and they are treated as such.

It's a choice between being the master or the slave.

Boston is not the economic powerhouse. The team was ready to move to St Louis before Kraft stepped in.

BradyFTW! · Feb 27, 2015

mgteich said:
Dumber would have been to reject the proposal and lose the team. Tax money alone will easily pay beck the $50M, and that ignores the positive effect on the economy of having a team.

Yes, this kind of funding can be overdone. The alternative is to have all teams owned by billionaires who are willing fund everything out of their pockets.

Because losing the team over $50M was going to happen. Moving to San Antonio and fighting to gain a foothold in entrenched Cowboy country would totally be worth it to avoid a $50M stadium upgrade.

mgteich · Feb 27, 2015

BradyFTW! said:
Packer fans are probably the most rabidly loyal local fanbase in the NFL. And even they only passed a referendum to increase sales tax for Lambeau upgrades by a 53-47 margin. And that was 15 years ago, before the whole "stadium costs pay for themselves by stimulating the local economy" argument was thoroughly and repeatedly debunked.

This isn't a politicized issue, other than where you're maybe trying to make it one. When it's left up to the voters, they've made their opinion clear: they do not want to hand their tax money to billionaires. I live in Los Angeles, and we've been without a team for ~20 years precisely because of an unwillingness to put tax money toward a stadium. I'm confident that Boston similarly has its priorities and general common sense in order. They were willing to let Kraft leave last time he threatened to, after all.

Why isn't this a political issue? The voters make the decisions, as they should. They understand the tradeoffs.

This is a serious political issue throughout the US. And it has to do with much more than the NFL. Voters have to make decisions with regard to tax breaks for billionaires all the time, when a factory or other business want to move or stay and asks for tax help.

Some voters take the attitude expressed here and refuse "to spend a dime", and the businesses locate elsewhere, perhaps in SC or TX or ARK or WASH.

I am NOT saying what voters should do. These are really complicated political issues.

mgteich · Feb 27, 2015

BradyFTW! said:
Packer fans are probably the most rabidly loyal local fanbase in the NFL. And even they only passed a referendum to increase sales tax for Lambeau upgrades by a 53-47 margin. And that was 15 years ago, before the whole "stadium costs pay for themselves by stimulating the local economy" argument was thoroughly and repeatedly debunked.

I agree that Green Bay is an interesting case. I'm not all sure that investment in such a small market pays off for the local taxpayers. I believe that situation is different in HOU, STL, OAK and SD.

LA voters have made their decision. They have been without the revenue for 20 years. Would LA have been better off helping support a stadium 10 years ago? Maybe, maybe not. Now, they have waited and will get their free ride. IMHO, LA is the exception. It is a huge market. Eventually a team would have come. I'm surprised that it has taken over 20 years.

lurker1965 · Feb 27, 2015

shmessy said:
I...

It's a choice between being the master or the slave.

50 shades of WIFI...

TruthSeeker · Feb 27, 2015

mgteich said:
LA voters have made their decision. They have been without the revenue for 20 years.

Without the revenue?

You mean, without the drain on their resources.

mgteich · Feb 27, 2015

TruthSeeker said:
Without the revenue? You mean, without the drain on their resources.

LA will receive an average of $14 per ticket, plus sales tax on concessions and other sales. The local economy will also greatly benefit. LA taxpayers got all this for free. The council approved the deal 5-0 to get this moving fast. They've made their estimates of increase revenue and jobs. They are considerable.

So, there is an annualized economic benefit. If the taxpayers paid part of the bill, the revenue stream could have started ten years ago.

Brewskies · Feb 28, 2015

I am very happy we don't have Billy Sullivan instead we have Bob. Kraft. We are lucky, we have it all, best owner, coach, QB, team and the Superbowl 4 times. For me it couldn't be any better. I am a fan for 55 years and a original STH.

Bed Check Billy · Feb 28, 2015

The worst deal in the league is the Colts stadium deal. Highway robbery. The problem is the citizens do not get a say in if those things are passed. A city board makes the decision. Since the Irsay family has a history of moving teams, I guess that board rolled over. We are lucky to have Kraft.

KamikazeKnight · Feb 28, 2015

mgteich said:
Apparently folks here are well up on the politics and economics of stadium building in Houston. Yes, we COULD limit team ownership to those billionaires who are willing to use their own money to build and upgrade stadiums. The NFL is NOT going to do that. The NFL leaves open the option of having cities support their teams financially withe tax breaks and direct funding. There are many models.

I think it is easy for those in NE to say that other cities shouldn't contribute to stadiums. After all, we have a billionaire who uses his own money, and we have the most successful franchise in the NFL. Perhaps if one of these ingredients were missing then those in NE might also be willing to support a stadium.
=============
But maybe not. After all, folks in Boston were willing to allow the team to move to Hartford or St Louis. We have Kraft to thank. Perhaps other cities are not so willing to let their team leave.

Even if Kraft was dirt poor, I would rather have no NFL team at all than give taxpayer money to these NFL franchise fat cats. And make no mistake, that is exactly what they are.

mgteich · Feb 28, 2015

KamikazeKnight said:
Even if Kraft was dirt poor, I would rather have no NFL team at all than give taxpayer money to these NFL franchise fat cats. And make no mistake, that is exactly what they are.

I understand your position. From posters here and the lack of taxpayer support in the past, I believe that most around here agree with you. New England is very lucky to have Kraft.

Should the Kraft's move on from running the team, perhaps the Boston area will go 20 years without a team like LA did, or longer since Boston/Providence is a much smaller market.

TomPatriot · Feb 28, 2015

mgteich said:
I agree that Green Bay is an interesting case. I'm not all sure that investment in such a small market pays off for the local taxpayers. I believe that situation is different in HOU, STL, OAK and SD.

In Green Bay it's not only about investment. It's about history, community and culture. Dollars aren't everything.

meatface · Feb 28, 2015

Our not evil owner is a real nice change of pace from the rest of the league.

shmessy · Feb 28, 2015

mgteich said:
I understand your position. From posters here and the lack of taxpayer support in the past, I believe that most around here agree with you. New England is very lucky to have Kraft.

Should the Kraft's move on from running the team, perhaps the Boston area will go 20 years without a team like LA did, or longer since Boston/Providence is a much smaller market.

I don't think the citizenry of LA is envious of the residents of Cincinatti or Indianapolis or Baltimore. A world class city is not a hostage. Its the cow towns that pay the ransom. And that's why they will always be cow towns.

Froob · Feb 28, 2015

In all fairness, Kraft did fight tooth and nail to get out of paying for it before he eventually did. If you can't pay for it you really shouldn't own a team.

mgteich · Feb 28, 2015

shmessy said:
I don't think the citizenry of LA is envious of the residents of Cincinatti or Indianapolis or Baltimore. A world class city is not a hostage. Its the cow towns that pay the ransom. And that's why they will always be cow towns.

So, your opinion is if the patriots had moved to St. Louis that would mean that Boston is a cow town?

BTW, you embarrass yourself by calling BALT a cowtown.

shmessy · Feb 28, 2015

mgteich said:
So, your opinion is if the patriots had moved to St. Louis that would mean that Boston is a cow town?

BTW, you embarrass yourself by calling BALT a cowtown.

1) You didn't understand a word. A town that PAYS a ransom to get or keep an NFL team is a cow town. Not the city that refuses to pay the ransom. Had the Pats moved to St Louis, Boston would not have been any worse than LA which hasn't had a team for two decades. Not having an NFL team does not make a city a cow town. PAYING a huge ransom for one while your city flounders DOES.

2) As a 27 year resident of Maryland and a former resident in the late 80's and early 90's of Catonsville, I'm laughing my ass off at your wrong turn down the wrong street about Baltimore.

For anyone who knows as little about Baltimore as Mgteich evidently does, it's a larger version of Newark.

captain stone · Feb 28, 2015

It took me only one year (2007-08) of living in Bal'more to hate the place…well, not so much the place
itself as the people in it..and when I say the people, I mean the Ratbird fanimals.

Houston Taxpayers To Pay For Stadium Upgrades that Kraft Pays On His Own Here

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