Welker and Edelman

JJDChE said:

It was a really tough catch. Tom turned him around, he was clearly looking for it inside and Brady threw it outside. I certainly wouldn't bet the house on Edelman to make it. That's a tough catch for any WR. Welker had a 77.2% catch rate in '07, Edelman had a 68.7% catch rate this year. I'd take Welker. Lots of people want to rewrite history because of the outcome. I guarantee you if you gave people the option for either one of those before they knew the outcome 100% of them would choose Welker in that situation. Some people can't separate emotion from fact in their decision making process.

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Edelman made the catches when it mattered, welker didn't. It's that simple

JJDChE said:

This thread is about Welker and Edelman. You're the only one talking about Manning for no reason in particular. Legacy quest? WTF are you talking about?

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It's an example. Manning had all the stats, like welker, yet Brady and Edelman made crucial key plays

When the ball hits both hands fully, and both palms, it's catchable and should be caught at this level

We don't need to tear down Welker's contributions to the team to note that Edelman has matured into an excellent NFL wide receiver. Welker's tenure with the Patriots led to a re-emergence of the slot receiver as an integral position in an NFL offense, and a few ill-timed drops doesn't affect that legacy.

Putting Edelman in "opposition" to Welker is unfair to both, as they're not the same player, as much as we were conditioned to believe so with the "Mini-Me" talk early on in Edelman's tenure. He has his own skill set. (To my eye, though, Edelman's role in the offense is closer to how Hernandez was being used rather than Welker.)

One of the questions I do have about how Welker and Edelman have been used comes from a comment one of the play-by-play guys made (could have been Simms or Collinsworth). The announcer noted that there were plays in the 2014 playbook where Edelman was Brady's only read on a pass play. Was Welker ever used in such a way?

JJDChE said:

It was a really tough catch. Tom turned him around, he was clearly looking for it inside and Brady threw it outside. I certainly wouldn't bet the house on Edelman to make it. That's a tough catch for any WR. Welker had a 77.2% catch rate in '07, Edelman had a 68.7% catch rate this year. I'd take Welker. Lots of people want to rewrite history because of the outcome. I guarantee you if you gave people the option for either one of those before they knew the outcome 100% of them would choose Welker in that situation. Some people can't separate emotion from fact in their decision making process.

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Your last sentence is absolutely correct. And while not intending to be critical, I'd suggest you may be one of those "some people."

ewg_gestalt said:

Putting Edelman in "opposition" to Welker is unfair to both, as they're not the same player, as much as we were conditioned to believe so with the "Mini-Me" talk early on in Edelman's tenure. He has his own skill set. (To my eye, though, Edelman's role in the offense is closer to how Hernandez was being used rather than Welker.)

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To be fair, the main reason for that is that they had him doing Welker-like things in games, and he was almost literally shadowing Welker in practices.

One of the questions I do have about how Welker and Edelman have been used comes from a comment one of the play-by-play guys made (could have been Simms or Collinsworth). The announcer noted that there were plays in the 2014 playbook where Edelman was Brady's only read on a pass play. Was Welker ever used in such a way?

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With no evidence one way or the other, I would guess yes.

Jackson 2 said:

Your last sentence is absolutely correct. And while not intending to be critical, I'd suggest you may be one of those "some people."

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Well, you'd be wrong. I'm really just pointing out consensus. It's of no relevance to me if one or the other is considered better, but it's very clear that Welker is the consensus better receiver and will be remembered as such unless Edelman has a string of seasons more successful than he's already had.

Edelman has been great the last couple of years, I hope he continues to get better, but he hasn't been as good as Welker was at what he does.

If you want an unbiased opinion, ask the players and writers. Here are some rankings I found of Welker going back to 2008: 2008 #40 (SI.com), 2009 #48 (foxsports.com), 20011-2014 (nfl.com) #50, #23, #44, and #73 the last 4 years. Edelman hasn't even shown up on the list. Granted, these compilations aren't always the best, but it does show Edelman isn't even on the radar of the NFL at large. He'll probably crack the top 70-80 in this years rankings. Welker was considered a top 50 for 6 years running. If Edelman was close I wouldn't even bother arguing, but he hasn't put up a body of work that has even caught the attention of the guys he plays against. What does that tell you?

A masterpiece.

And the funny thing is that the man in the Seahawks uniform at the time of that hit actually has done more for our franchise in a single season than the worthless midget he wiped out with that magnificent hit.

Bruins29 said:

Fourseries, you taking me up on that bet? Or are you going to be known as spineless for the rest of your life on here.

Say what you want about WW. He went over the middle and took beatings night after night. You cant even back up a little claim you made on here with a bet after you shot off your big mouth. And you criticize WW? comical.

Your rep here is firmly cemented. All the posters are laughing at you.

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I spot 4 players in a Pats uniform in this gif [of Welker getting crushed] who have contributed more to this franchise than Welker did. Can you name them?

I'm sick of Wes Wekler.

JJDChE said:

Well, you'd be wrong. I'm really just pointing out consensus. It's of no relevance to me if one or the other is considered better, but it's very clear that Welker is the consensus better receiver and will be remembered as such unless Edelman has a string of seasons more successful than he's already had.

Edelman has been great the last couple of years, I hope he continues to get better, but he hasn't been as good as Welker was at what he does.

If you want an unbiased opinion, ask the players and writers. Here are some rankings I found of Welker going back to 2008: 2008 #40 (SI.com), 2009 #48 (foxsports.com), 20011-2014 (nfl.com) #50, #23, #44, and #73 the last 4 years. Edelman hasn't even shown up on the list. Granted, these compilations aren't always the best, but it does show Edelman isn't even on the radar of the NFL at large. He'll probably crack the top 70-80 in this years rankings. Welker was considered a top 50 for 6 years running. If Edelman was close I wouldn't even bother arguing, but he hasn't put up a body of work that has even caught the attention of the guys he plays against. What does that tell you?

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Look, obviously you're not going to change my mind and I'm not going to change yours. It's not my intention to denigrate Welker or dismiss his abilities and accomplishments. He doesn't deserve that. However, I just think Edelman is a more versatile and better player right now than Welker is or was. Just one more thing: you may want to rethink this one: "If you want an unbiased opinion, ask the players and writers." Sure about that?

FourierSeries said:

A masterpiece.

And the funny thing is that the man in the Seahawks uniform at the time of that hit actually has done more for our franchise in a single season than the worthless midget he wiped out with that magnificent hit.

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I get that the internet is a breeding ground for trolls. But at the end of the day, every single NFL player is tough. From QB 1 to the last guy on the practice squad, they all subject themselves to ridiculous amounts of legal violence for a game that destroys their bodies and leads to all sorts of post-career issues that last their lifetimes.

Whether a guy makes a play or doesn't make a play or doesn't even play, there really is no place for this kind of stuff. And I know you're just trolling, but I also know you wouldn't say a single word to Welker in person because midget or not, he would kick your ass easily. Every single NFL player is tougher than the average internet troll, including punters and kickers, and I'd even include most coaches.

And on a purely objective level, if you think a guy that played 9 regular season games for us is worth more than a guy who averaged 112 catches over 6 years, you're a moron. Not even a 4-year old would say something that idiotic. Only an internet troll could go full ****** while making fun of someone else.

Archeryaddict12 said:

When the ball hits both hands fully, and both palms, it's catchable and should be caught at this level

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Esp when a player is looking for an $8-10M a year contract.... just saying

Bruins29 said:

Great post. All 100% true.

Also, anyone who thinks JE is in the same discussion all time (at this point now) as WW is all time is a real idiot. What does more versatile have to do with anything?

God, this place is a clown show. Embarrassing.

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When people look back at this in 20+ years, Pats fans will always look at Edelman more favorably than Welker. It might not be fair, but thats the way it works.

FourierSeries said:

I spot 4 players in a Pats uniform in this gif [of Welker getting crushed] who have contributed more to this franchise than Welker did. Can you name them?

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AzorianPats said:

When people look back at this in 20+ years, Pats fans will always look at Edelman more favorably than Welker. It might not be fair, but thats the way it works.

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Of course they will. Just like they would of anyone who's big moment was positive rather than negative.

Having a favorable memory and warm fuzzies about a player is fine. I love JE. But if I sat down with real football writers and former and current players and I tried to tell them (now) that all time JE belongs in any "best ever" discussion I would be laughed out of the room. Plain and simple. WW would belong in that discussion.

Some of you are just going to have to get over that because that is the way that works. Maybe JE can get there someday. I hope he does.

JJDChE said:

It was a really tough catch. Tom turned him around, he was clearly looking for it inside and Brady threw it outside. I certainly wouldn't bet the house on Edelman to make it. That's a tough catch for any WR. Welker had a 77.2% catch rate in '07, Edelman had a 68.7% catch rate this year. I'd take Welker.

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The Super Bowl incident in question happened in February 2012.

The Patriots and Welker parted ways in the spring of 2013.

What in the world does Welker's 2007 catch percentage have to do with ANYTHING in this decade?

Heck, LaDainian Tomlinson led the league in rushing in 2007.

shmessy said:

The Super Bowl incident in question happened in February 2012.

The Patriots and Welker parted ways in the spring of 2013.

What in the world does Welker's 2007 catch percentage have to do with ANYTHING in this decade?

Heck, LaDainian Tomlinson led the league in rushing in 2007.

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You're right, his catch rate was only 70.5% in 2011. Still higher than any year in Edelman's career.

And he led the league in receptions and was 2nd in receiving yards. That was the second time he was second overall in receiving in the NFL, 5th time in the top 11. Edelman almost broke the top 20 last year. Maybe he'll get there this year.

Do you feel better that you pointed that out now?

Jackson 2 said:

Look, obviously you're not going to change my mind and I'm not going to change yours. It's not my intention to denigrate Welker or dismiss his abilities and accomplishments. He doesn't deserve that. However, I just think Edelman is a more versatile and better player right now than Welker is or was. Just one more thing: you may want to rethink this one: "If you want an unbiased opinion, ask the players and writers." Sure about that?

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You're free to think whatever you like. While individuals certainly have biases, using a panel tends to cancel out biases. Whatever is on those lists is far less biased than any commentary here.

I just feel fortunate to have had them both play for my team. I don't need to compare them against themselves. I appreciate all they have given to the Pats and what Edelman will continue to deliver in the future. I hope in the future there will be another Pats player that will be as good or better playing for us.

Brewskies said:

I just feel fortunate to have had them both play for my team. I don't need to compare them against themselves. I appreciate all they have given to the Pats and what Edelman will continue to deliver in the future. I hope in the future there will be another Pats player that will be as good or better playing for us.

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Exactly. Just as Fryar, and Hanna, and Bledsoe, contributed in great ways but did not win. You dont rewrite the history books because you think it takes away from the current guy.

You diminish what Welker did here from a performance level (and I was fine when they moved on from him) and you are doing the same thing to the guys above.

JJDChE said:

You're right, his catch rate was only 70.5% in 2011. Still higher than any year in Edelman's career.

And he led the league in receptions and was 2nd in receiving yards. That was the second time he was second overall in receiving in the NFL, 5th time in the top 11. Edelman almost broke the top 20 last year. Maybe he'll get there this year.

Do you feel better that you pointed that out now?

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You just argued that Peyton Manning is a better QB than Tom Brady in this post.

Congrats on your completely absurd argument, and thank you for showing why you are not to be taken seriously.