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Logan Ryan and Alfonzo Dennard


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BB has done a few. Why not Dennard?

He has. It just happens once or twice every few years. The only time I can remember the Pats doing it in recent years was with Blount and the Pats traded a player who had little interest in the NFL for him.
 
The conditions where they do happen are conditions that fit a Dennard trade though. Expiring, little guaranteed money left, and still young enough that both players have flier upside in a new situation.

Belichick would still rather trade for draft picks. Typically, Belichick doesn't give up a player for another player unless he is giving up garbage. Dennard's first two years showed that he has some value.

Going into this season, there was a lot of debate on when Browner came off of suspension whether he would be able to replace Dennard for the starting job. The board was pretty evenly split on that one. In fact, I think the majority were in favor of starting Dennard over Browner.

Yes, he had a bad year, but before this year he was a potential rising star on this team. I still think there is a team out there who will write off this past season to the shoulder injury and may think he could be the solid #2 press man CB that he was his first two seasons. If I am right, they will likely be willing to give up a low mid round pick (a 4th or a 5th).
 
I'd rathr ride it out with Dennard and see if he can return to form with a full offseason. You can never have enough CB depth especially at his price and I doubt we'd get much if anything in return for him. I'm remaining cautiously optimistic with these two Ryan has also shown flashes and hopefully improves. If at least one can step up next season just makes this D even better.
 
I can see Dennard being trade bait. He has starter experience and is relatively cheap. If the Pats can get a mid rounder for him, I think they may take it. Considering they got him in the seventh round, it would be a huge gain for the team.

Ryan had an up and down season. He is not an outside starter, but at times he played really well while sucking others. He could make a year three jump. Not saying it will be a Hightower type of jump, but he might get far more consistent.

I can't see anyone giving up a mid-rounder for one year of a guy who couldn't make the active roster in 2014 and has multiple off-field incidents on his record. I could maybe see getting a 7th rounder back for him, but even that would be a pleasant surprise.

A fourth rounder is simply never going to happen. Any team that's looking at a need at CB would much, much rather spend a pick on four years of cheap labor for one of the various guys that'll be available there, rather than one year of Dennard at $1M. There will be some good CB prospects available in the 4th round, and the contract matters as much as the prospect at that point.
 
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I can't see anyone giving up a mid-rounder for one year of a guy who couldn't make the active roster in 2014 and has multiple off-field incidents on his record. I could maybe see getting a 7th rounder back for him, but even that would be a pleasant surprise.

A fourth rounder is simply never going to happen. Any team that's looking at a need at CB would much, much rather spend a pick on four years of cheap labor for one of the various guys that'll be available there, rather than one year of Dennard at $1M. There will be some good CB prospects available in the 4th round, and the contract matters as much as the prospect at that point.

He is a guy who started two years in a row. We do not know why he didn't make the active roster in 2014. Before this year, the Pats probably could have gotten a third rounder for him. So him getting a fourth or fifth isn't out of the question.

As for the off the field incidents, they are relatively minor compared to what is going on in the league.

People act like this guy is a total bust. If the Pats dangled this guy for a 7th, there would be 10-15 teams lining up to take a shot at him. A seventh rounder for a guy who was a pretty good starter his first two seasons coming off down year after shoulder surgery. GMs would be drooling over this guy for a seventh.

Seriously, this is a what have you done for me lately fan base. People ignore everything Dennard done before this year. This time last year, people were bragging that Belichick drafted a second round pick in the seventh round, now people are saying that the Pats would be lucky to get that seventh round back. They might not because they know the Pats may cut them, but I bet there will be a team to jump at him.

And when did $1 million for a starting caliber CB become too much to spend? Hell, when did it become too much for a back up?
 
Wasn't Dennard injured week 2? I thought for certain that injuries forced him out in 2014 and it wasn't performance based? He was listed as questionable with a shoulder injury during beginning part of the year and I believe it was a hammy that forced him on IR..

Problem is that BB will always play the guy with more special teams value. Arrington is a huge contributor to special teams so he will always get the nod. Therefore this really wasn't a meteoric fall down the depth chart, he basically started off as 4th corner AT BEST (Revis/Browner/Arrington (for special teams purposes)/ ______)
 
I have no clue what happened to Dennard. Looking at it realistically, though... his inability to even make a game day roster for the majority of the season strongly suggests that he's probably not in the Pats' long-term plans (unless Revis is gone).
 
I have no clue what happened to Dennard. Looking at it realistically, though... his inability to even make a game day roster for the majority of the season strongly suggests that he's probably not in the Pats' long-term plans (unless Revis is gone).

$1.5mm is a lot of money to pay a kid to be #4 or #5 as well, particularly when he's not a force on STs. If Dennard isn't a top 3 option midway through camp, I don't see how he makes the team.
 
Any GM that gives more than a 6th for Dennard should be fired on the spot.

He is not really trade bait. Maybe he can be good. Maybe not. He has been inconsistent throughout his career. Also his cost next year keeps him off the roster. Cutting him frees up nearly 1M over a minimum contract. Unless Ryan is horrible or Dennard comes on strong he is gone.
 
If I recall correctly what happened in the 2014 season with Dennard was that the Patriots wanted him to take over as the slot corner with the idea that Browner and Revis would be on the outside. However, Dennard was unable for to make the transition. Whether that was due to an injury, mentally not understanding what needed to be done, not a physical fit for that position or something else, the end result was a semi-permanent place as a game day inactive.

What happens in 2015 with Dennard hinges on a few factors.
- Will the Patriots be able to bring both Revis and Browner back at contracts that both sides can live with?
- If one of either Revis or Bowner is injured, who is the top backup on the outside?
- Can Dennard become a better special teams player, making himself more of an asset as a #3 or #4 CB?
- Besides Ryan, don't forget abut some guy named Malcolm Butler at CB.
- An unforeseen injury quite often has a way of influencing these roster decisions.
 
Assuming he busts his ass in the off-season, Malcolm Butler is the obvious candidate to become the #1 backup to Revis and the first CB off the bench in dime packages. He made a bunch of really good plays in the SuperBowl.
 
$1.5mm is a lot of money to pay a kid to be #4 or #5 as well, particularly when he's not a force on STs. If Dennard isn't a top 3 option midway through camp, I don't see how he makes the team.

I'd argue that Tavon Wilson is more useless than Dennard and he is set to make I think $100k less. He had the least number of snaps out of all the secondary not named Nate Ebner and Don't Jones.
 
I'd argue that Tavon Wilson is more useless than Dennard and he is set to make I think $100k less. He had the least number of snaps out of all the secondary not named Nate Ebner and Don't Jones.

He's certainly on the bubble, but Tavon is a superior ST player and seemed to forge a small role for himself as the year went on.
 
I wonder about Duron Harmon. I am still annoyed about that crazy Kearse catch that Harmon jumped over.
 
I can't see anyone giving up a mid-rounder for one year of a guy who couldn't make the active roster in 2014 and has multiple off-field incidents on his record.
Yes, we all miss Al Davis
 
Someone- I'm not sure who, said that Dennard becoming a casualty could very well be a possibility to save cap here as he'd save around 1.8 million or so. Am I correct?
 
90% sure Dennard had injury issues last season. He was amongst the better number 2 corners in the league the season before as ranked by pff and others and the dropoff is statistically unlikely unless there is something really wrong.

The rule changes definitely hurt him, since his game is so reliant on press coverage and he never quite got over not being present for all of training camp.

I still think he's a real good football player who must have had some life or injury issue affecting his play.

As for Logan Ryan, i'm more worried. He doesn't have good press coverage skills, he's not quite tall enough and athletic enough to be an outside db and he didn't perform well at safety or in the slot for whatever reason. He has pretty good instincts and makes a lot of ints b/c he has good hands, but they're often gambles and I think opposing oc's recognize his limitations and devise plans to go after him.
 
He is a guy who started two years in a row. We do not know why he didn't make the active roster in 2014. Before this year, the Pats probably could have gotten a third rounder for him. So him getting a fourth or fifth isn't out of the question.

As for the off the field incidents, they are relatively minor compared to what is going on in the league.

People act like this guy is a total bust. If the Pats dangled this guy for a 7th, there would be 10-15 teams lining up to take a shot at him. A seventh rounder for a guy who was a pretty good starter his first two seasons coming off down year after shoulder surgery. GMs would be drooling over this guy for a seventh.

Seriously, this is a what have you done for me lately fan base. People ignore everything Dennard done before this year. This time last year, people were bragging that Belichick drafted a second round pick in the seventh round, now people are saying that the Pats would be lucky to get that seventh round back. They might not because they know the Pats may cut them, but I bet there will be a team to jump at him.

And when did $1 million for a starting caliber CB become too much to spend? Hell, when did it become too much for a back up?

Nobody's claiming that he's a bust. We're recognizing the relative value of players in contract years vs. draft picks. There are CBs who can fetch a fourth rounder in the last year of their rookie deal. Aqib Talib is one. I think it goes without saying that Alfonzo Dennard is not in the same league as Talib.

No, even generously spekaing, he's more like Alan Branch, LeGarrette Blount, and Akeem Ayers. All of those players came with a similar story to Dennard: potentially starter caliber, but they sure as hell weren't starting.

You keep stating it as a matter of fact that Dennard is a starting-caliber corner, which I find strange because last time I checked he was sixth on the Patriots' depth chart. Are you claiming that we have six starter-caliber corners?

The most optimistic comparison that I can make for Dennard using recent comps is that he's similar to Ayers. A player who has flashed some starter-caliber potential in past years at a high-value position, but in the past season could not get on the field for reasons unknown that may or may not have been related to past health concerns.

Now, with that comparison in mind, go back and review what Ayers fetched in trade, and remember that the Titans were operating from a position of (slight) leverage since the Pats had so few alternatives at that point in the season). Or go look at Blount, who had flashed not just starter ability, but fringe Pro Bowl ability, albeit at a lower-value position.

It's not that I'm undervaluing Dennard or think he sucks. He was a good pick who, even if he's cut before next season, delivered a lot of value for where he was drafted. But that said, I understand what a player of his profile is worth on the trade market. Not based on feelings or loyalty or a willingness to ignore how buried he was on the depth chart, but based on actual comparables. Front offices aren't in the business of trading mid-round picks for one year of a guy who, best case scenario, got knocked off the roster for a whole year for no reason at all. In that best case scenario, he comes back 100% healthy and motivated to be... a low-to-mid-grade starter for you, in which case he commands a pretty hefty price tag in free agency one year from now. Even if you can guarantee that best case scenario, most teams would still rather just draft someone like Ronald Darby, Doran Grant, Lorenzo Doss, or even Nick Marshall in the 4th/5th, and have him locked in for four years at a cheap price.

You're dramatically overvaluing the fact that Dennard used to be a starter, and dramatically undervaluing the fact that he couldn't crack the top 6 CBs this year, and that teams actually care about getting four years of cost control out of their draft picks. Trading a pick for just one year of production is a major concession in its own right; nobody gives up a mid-rounder for a player surrounded by question marks unless the upside is much greater than what Dennard possess. Every comp of a player in a similar situation clearly indicates that he's worth a whole lot less in trade than you're claiming he is.
 
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Ryan is who he is a #4 corner who may play better at FS but lets hope McCourthy is back, Dennard was a full time starter for 2 seasons and has played vs some of the best WR's in the NFL and at times was ok but I would not Trade him for a mid round pick unless the pats go CB with #32 and he's just the odd man out.

I see them both on the roster next year. there are maybe three CB's that are good a nuff to star in the Draft and they will be gone by #32 so no reason to trade away or cut young CB's playing on mid round rookie contracts with over 30 starts and 13 INT's between them when the price for CB's in the NFL is crazy
 
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