Contracts to deal with

AndyJohnson said:

Easley was healthy enough to play and did not play ahead of Siliga. That is simply a fact.


While Siliga was injured, Easley played behind the people who were behind siliga both before his injury and after he returned.

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Easley wasn't very healthy at any point last season. That's understood by most. He was coming off of a 2nd ACL injury and also was a rookie who was just being incorporated. To take it one step further, he ended up finishing the season on IR.

To claim that Easley cannot earn the starting role between now and September is ridiculous. It's totally absurd. You have absolutely no idea.

@AndyJohnson-- It's gotten to the point where we're probably beginning to disrespect others on the forum for having to read though our personal disagreement, so I don't want to allow that to continue anymore. It's been a couple of pages now.

I suppose the problem that you have was with my wording of "rotational depth," where I included everyone but Wilfork. Where I didn't agree was when you started claiming that there were no other outside factors such as injuries, rookie status of Easley, etc. It's really that simple--and hardly worth debating anymore.

I seriously encourage you to just leave things on a respectable note where we can agree to disagree and move on. It's hardly worth anyone's time and effort. We aren't going to agree on this.

supafly said:

I said that he was part of our "rotational depth," that includes Easley, Chris Jones, and Siliga.

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This is just wrong, unless you are calling Wilfork 'rotational depth too'.
Siliga played more snaps than each and every one of those players in each and every game that he was healthy. Are we going to call Edelman part of our rotational depth at WR?
Siliga was not in a rotation. He was the #2 DT whenever he was healthy. The other players, ie the backups, were the depth, and they played more when the 'starter' Siliga was injured.

All 3 pulled ahead with earning more reps at different points in the season, and there's certainly good reason to believe that 1st round pick Easley will continue to gain more reps and start alongside Wilfork.

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That is simply not true. None of them played more than Siliga in any game Siliga was healthy.
You are making things up now.

Either way, if you agree that we're obviously in subpackages the majority of the time, that automatically makes Easley a clear cut starter alongside Wilfork anyway, so I'm not sure why you'd have such a hard time with that concept?

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Huh? We played nickel as our base this year, and Siliga was the clearcut starter (as I proved earlier) next to Wilfork, unless he was injured, then others filled in.
Playing nickel on 1st down doesn't mean you take a good run stopping DT off the field for a guy who struggles vs the run and hopefully can be a better pass rusher. With 5 DBs in the game, the big DTs inside are MORE important than if you are in 43 or 34.

supafly said:

Easley wasn't very healthy at any point last season. That's understood by most. He was coming off of a 2nd ACL injury and also was a rookie who was just being incorporated. To take it one step further, he ended up finishing the season on IR.

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He was healthy enough to play in 12 games. Are you telling me that he was healthy enough to play but somehow not healthy enough to play as many snaps as the guy ahead of him on the depth chart? He played full time in his role, which was a reserve DT who played in dime, and then in one game he played DE. The fact that he reinjured himself later in the season does not affect how many snaps he had before being injured.

To claim that Easley cannot earn the starting role between now and September is ridiculous. It's totally absurd. You have absolutely no idea.

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Totally agree, which is why I never said that, and you are making it up. Sure, he COULD earn a bigger role, but as of now, he has not. As of now, Wilfork and Siliga are clearly the 1 and 2 DTs. Its not even a gray area.

supafly said:

@AndyJohnson-- It's gotten to the point where we're probably beginning to disrespect others on the forum for having to read though our personal disagreement, so I don't want to allow that to continue anymore. It's been a couple of pages now.

I suppose the problem that you have was with my wording of "rotational depth," where I included everyone but Wilfork. Where I didn't agree was when you started claiming that there were no other outside factors such as injuries, rookie status of Easley, etc. It's really that simple--and hardly worth debating anymore.

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I claimed no such thing. I simply rejected your made up excuses to cover that you were wrong.
Yes Easley was a rookie. You suggested a draft pick could come in and take Siliga's job. I showed that a first rounder actually didn't. You are latching on to claiming now that Siliga only played (it would seem maybe you finally accept the real numbers, maybe not) because Easley was injured, when Easley was on the field. Easley did nothing this year to supplant Siliga. Sure he could in the future, but that has absolutely nothing to do with the fact that as of today Wilfork and Siliga are first team DTs. In your dozens of posts here, you have done nothing to refute that, other than a bizarre 'you cant know the future' mantra.
You really can just admit you were wrong and didn't realize that Siliga was the first team DT all year long whenever he was healthy. It would look a lot better than continuing to say the sky is pink.

I seriously encourage you to just leave things on a respectable note where we can agree to disagree and move on. It's hardly worth anyone's time and effort. We aren't going to agree on this.

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Feel free to stop posting. I will make my own decision. Agreeing to disagree is a fine move when there is a difference in opinion. In this case it is a difference in fact, and you refusing to accept fact, so I won't be agreeing to disagree about a fact.

AndyJohnson said:

He was healthy enough to play in 12 games.

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No he didn't. First of all, Easley played in 11 games, and both started and ended the season very injured. He came into training camp unable to even participate, and left the season in the beginning of Dec on IR.

To take it one step further, in 5/11 games, he saw 20 reps or less. If that's what you consider a "competitive" rookie season, then you're just saying that to try and prove your point. My position was never that Easley beat Siliga out, but rather that Siliga took advantage of the fact that Easley was a rookie who was hurt, thus offering zero competition. That may change in the future, and therefore your statement that "why would you think a first rounder may beat Siliga out when it didn't happen last year" has no place in this conversation. Last year was an entirely different story, as is the case every single year. For all you know, we could get the second coming of Aaron Donald this year in the draft.

If you wish me to state that Siliga was the "starter" for the period between mid-Dec and the Super Bowl to stop this nonsense, fair enough--but that doesn't prove a damn thing about the bulk of the 2014 reps (which Siliga did not get--hence the use of the term 'rotational depth,') nor the future moving forward. As of today he's laid up in a hospital attempting a long road of recovery, so we have absolutely no idea as to what his health will even be, let alone the other factors that go into making the decision with Easley and any other draft picks or free agents.

AndyJohnson said:

As of now, Wilfork and Siliga are clearly the 1 and 2 DTs. Its not even a gray area.

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As of when? Aside from playing in the first 2 games of the year (and 1/4 of the 3rd game) Siliga didn't even come off of short-term IR until week 14. That's what you choose to define "starter?" A random handful of games? Okay then, but I don't agree. Thank God Bryan Stork came back for the SB, or Josh Kline would be a "starter," judging by your definition.

According to Mike Reiss: "But upon his return in early December, Siliga quickly emerged as a starter next to Vince Wilfork, which carried into the playoffs." This hardly coincides with your comment about him being a full time starter from day one, which has been my point all along. Last year he took advantage of the injuries to Kelly and Wilfork, this year he took advantage of the lack of competition again. Perhaps you feel differently? More power to you, but we're not going to agree.

You may consider a guy who was hurt all year as the "clear cut starter" based on a late season push. I will withhold my judgement until I see a larger sample size deeper in next season, and even then we're likely to see a rotation combo of several players.

Either way, you can't tell me what percentage of the pie was all based on Siliga's talents alone and what percentage was based on a 1st round pick like Easley being placed on IR, which I've pointed out many times. It's a combination of the two, and will be in the future. With Easley finally getting healthy and the possibility of an additional higher-round pick, I believe the competition should be improved.

Andy and Supafly, please stop. How much Siliga played has nothing to do with the topic - contracts to deal with. Siliga is an ERFA. Andy, what Supafly said about your posting style is true I, for one, avoid getting into a back and forth with you.

If you can't stop then at least create a separate thread so the rest of us can then put it on ignore

Does the news of Hightowers recovery more than likely going into the regular season, change the way the Pats look at Mayo? I think they will come to Mayo with a restructuring offer, but the news that Hightower may not be available for week one, give Mayo extra bargaining?

Either way, I expect Mayo back, hopefully with a lower cap Number.

We should all know what direction the Pats are going in the next two weeks, with the deadline for Revis' option and Wilfork's roster bonus being March 9 and 10 respectively.

I think it will have more bearing on their attempts to retain Ayers than it will their dealings with Mayo. I would guess they have a number in mind for Mayo and will stick with that number.

http://overthecap.com/manning-vs-brady-debate-broncos-manning-2015/

Why a good qb cap matters! Greedy manning cost his teams.

supafly said:

No he didn't. First of all, Easley played in 11 games, and both started and ended the season very injured. He came into training camp unable to even participate, and left the season in the beginning of Dec on IR.

To take it one step further, in 5/11 games, he saw 20 reps or less. If that's what you consider a "competitive" rookie season, then you're just saying that to try and prove your point. My position was never that Easley beat Siliga out, but rather that Siliga took advantage of the fact that Easley was a rookie who was hurt, thus offering zero competition. That may change in the future, and therefore your statement that "why would you think a first rounder may beat Siliga out when it didn't happen last year" has no place in this conversation. Last year was an entirely different story, as is the case every single year. For all you know, we could get the second coming of Aaron Donald this year in the draft.

If you wish me to state that Siliga was the "starter" for the period between mid-Dec and the Super Bowl to stop this nonsense, fair enough--but that doesn't prove a damn thing about the bulk of the 2014 reps (which Siliga did not get--hence the use of the term 'rotational depth,') nor the future moving forward. As of today he's laid up in a hospital attempting a long road of recovery, so we have absolutely no idea as to what his health will even be, let alone the other factors that go into making the decision with Easley and any other draft picks or free agents.

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Siliga has played the most or second most snaps in every game in his Patriot career that he was healthy.
Rotational depth is a player who is a reserve who rotates in behind the DT that gets the most or second most snaps.
End of story.

Miguel said:

Andy and Supafly, please stop. How much Siliga played has nothing to do with the topic - contracts to deal with. Siliga is an ERFA. Andy, what Supafly said about your posting style is true I, for one, avoid getting into a back and forth with you.

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I'm done.
Thanks for taking a shot at me though, I'm sure that has something to do with contracts to deal with.

Before the new league year on 3/10/15 to relies any benefits cap relief....There is no way we carry him at the 9 mill cap......cut pre 3/10/15 the cap is only 433,333 after add 4 mill to that..If not cut pre 3/10 all leverage is gone...The only true and fair option to both sides is to cut him and let him experience free agency at his age, to let the market decide his value.....I am guessing less than 4 mill. One year early before one year late....

fair option for both sides?

I think Vince probably feels the patriots paying him the 9 million is fair.

I don't see the big guy renegotiating, so he will most likely be cut. I really wish he had retired after the superbowl win, because a team WILL pay him 6-7 million for a couple of years, where I feel like the highest the pats can afford to go is 4.5, and pride isn't going to let him take 4.5 after being denied 9, when he can potentially pull in 7.

No we can't carry his cap #...and IDK if he will restructure again..he may..who knows

Vince will be well aware of the impact his cap number has on the Patriots ability to repeat this year.

The type of team that will be interested in him at close to those numbers are the same ones are the perrenial losers that have cap space to burn - I don't see VW making that move.

I think he'll be cut - no hard feelings - its just a case of whether he wants to re-sign for a number that suits the Patriots.

chasa said:

fair option for both sides?

I think Vince probably feels the patriots paying him the 9 million is fair.

I don't see the big guy renegotiating, so he will most likely be cut. I really wish he had retired after the superbowl win, because a team WILL pay him 6-7 million for a couple of years, where I feel like the highest the pats can afford to go is 4.5, and pride isn't going to let him take 4.5 after being denied 9, when he can potentially pull in 7.

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I think a lot of VWs value is based on team leader stuff that may not be as valuable to a competitor.

I'm honestly wondering who will pay him 7mil with a large part guaranteed.

I think people for some reason devalue Vince. I get the concerns last off-season due to his injury and I get he isn't getting any younger. But he bounced back this year and played a ridiculous snap count for a DT coming off major injury. We would have been screwed without him this year.

We need Vince. We definitely don't need a 9 mil cap hit so hopefully something can be negotiated and if it can't we might have no choice but to cut him but in no way is it a no brainer. We might have to carry that number if he digs his heals in because the dline still needs him.