Devin McCourty

Bruins29 said:

Also, Mcclusky can you do a full "film" breakdown of all the other FSs in the league so that we can have some context when we discuss whether DMC is worth XXX amount of dollars. Without a comparison this whole exercise is useless.

I expect the report to be in my inbox by the end of next week.

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Haha in a word, no.

Every team runs a different style of defense. Showing you Harrison Smith in his cover 2 role or Earl Thomas in his cover 3 role isn't apples to apples. It's simply an opinion by me.

The real question that makes the difference to me is how he compares to Harmon.

McClusky said:

I'd actually disagree with the first sentence of your statement.

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Take it up with Bill. He's commented on it many times. Or, as Artrell Hawkins put it:

Belichick had 4 letters painted on the wall in the defensive meeting room as reminder for the safeties. G.T.F.B: Get The F*#@ Back!

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https://twitter.com/artrellhawkins/status/290266971730214912

Here's Christopher Price with an article on it:

This season, after nine games, the Patriots have yielded 31 pass plays of 20 or more yards (tied for 24th). Those numbers spiked dramatically following last week against the Broncos, as New England allowed nine pass plays of 20 yards or more against the power Denver passing game. But the Patriots have managed to set the standard for the rest of the league when it comes to yielding pass plays of 40-plus yards -- New England has only allowed one pass play of 40 yards or more, with that coming last week against the Broncos when Peyton Manning hit Demaryius Thomas for a 41-yard pass play in garbage time.

“It’s a point of emphasis for, really, every team, [but] for us, we’ve got guys who have definitely worked at it,” said Flores. “We talk about it every day. They work on it every day.

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http://www.weei.com/sports/boston/f...014/11/06/patriots-secondary-and-triumph-gtfb

Deus Irae said:

Take it up with Bill. He's commented on it many times. Or, as Artrell Hawkins put it:



https://twitter.com/artrellhawkins/status/290266971730214912

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I don't really know what to tell you. The Pats system as they ran it last season was not done with the intent of stopping deep passing first. The coverage they ran most often is a direct indicator of that. It's not really a debatable point.

This might help you

http://www.thephinsider.com/2014/8/15/6000113/football-101-coverage-shells

McCourty's numbers for a FS are very good. He's a smart deep safety type of a player. I have Earl Thomas and Byrd as the elite FS in a class of their own and then Devin is in that 2nd tier with Weddle, Berry and Reid. We need to resign him because we can't replace him with a free agent and late in the draft. It looks like 7.5/8M a year is the going rate for that position, we have to pony up.

McClusky said:

I don't really know what to tell you. The Pats system as they ran it last season was not done with the intent of stopping deep passing first. The coverage they ran most often is a direct indicator of that. It's not really a debatable point.

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The Patriots coaching staff disagrees with you, as that article points out. So does Revis, in that same article, for that matter:

“That’s how we want to go about things back there in the secondary -- eliminating big plays and deep balls,’ he added. “We’ve been doing fairly good, but we could still get better, and turn some of those deep balls into interceptions and turnovers. So, we just have t continue to keep our foot on the pedal and keep improving.

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So, it's not debatable to you, but the Patriots coaches and players are not on the same page you seem to be reading from. Perhaps you could explain to the Patriots head coach, assistant coaches, and players that they are going about defending against the deep ball all wrong.

SalemPats said:

McCourty's numbers for a FS are very good. He's a smart deep safety type of a player. I have Earl Thomas and Byrd as the elite FS in a class of their own and then Devin is in that 2nd tier with Weddle, Berry and Reid. We need to resign him because we can't replace him with a free agent and late in the draft. It looks like 7.5/8M a year is the going rate for that position, we have to pony up.

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Personally, I think you need to knock Byrd down at least one step, and I'd move him two. He was terrible last season before his injury saved him from any more embarrassment on the field. There was nothing "safe" about having him at safety.

Sciz said:

Personally, I think you need to knock Byrd down at least one step, and I'd move him two. He was terrible last season before his injury saved him from any more embarrassment on the field. There was nothing "safe" about having him at safety.

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He got injured early in the season, but watching him play he's amazing. I do agree that Earl Thomas is the best in the game right now. But, I would say Byrd is better in coverage and Thomas is one of the all time best safeties against the run.

Marqui said:

We need EVERYBODY from our starting secondary from last year this year. It's not a coincidence that the teams with the best 2 secondaries in the league were the best teams in the regular season and were in the superbowl. You need an elite secondary to win the superbowl in today's game, period.

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You mean that we "want" everyone from our starting secondary back. The cost of Revis and McCourty is projected by our many posts to be about $24M a year. Maybe Belichick will consider this a good use of $24M, maybe not.

mgteich said:

You mean that we "want" everyone from our starting secondary back. The cost of Revis and McCourty is projected by our many posts to be about $24M a year. Maybe Belichick will consider this a good use of $24M, maybe not.

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No, we "need" them if we want to repeat. Cut whoever else you need to cut.

Deus Irae said:

The Patriots coaching staff disagrees with you, as that article points out. So does Revis, in that same article, for that matter:



So, it's not debatable to you, but the Patriots coaches and players are not on the same page you seem to be reading from. Perhaps you could explain to the Patriots head coach, assistant coaches, and players that they are going about defending against the deep ball all wrong.

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Not really in any way actually. The article you are referencing is talking about coaching technique whereas this entire time I've been talking about the Patriots scheme. Those 2 are not one in the same. The Pats ran a cover 1 shell the majority of the time last season with a predominantly man cover scheme. When discussing coverage options that isn't the ideal coverage set for big play prevention. What it does allow you is to disguise better, play matchup football, load the box, have a wider array of blitzes, ect. Those are all buzzwords you've heard in various articles in the past. Fundamentally with any coverage selection you're sacrificing something to gain something else. That is the exchange you're always making. This past season with the corners the Pats had, they played more aggressively in man in exchange for all the things I mentioned above, whereas in seasons past with shakier CB play they've sacrificed some of those things and ran more bland zone in an effort to prevent being beat deep. As we saw with Chung repeatedly being late in cover 2, and Tavon Wilson occasionally looking lost, that didn't always work.

What that article is talking about is drilling into the Pats defensive backs that they can't be beat deep in their assignments which is fundamental in virtually any man coverage. To do that the Pats CB's had to adjust what they were doing from a technical standpoint, rather than the Pats scheme prioritizing stopping the deep pass. Do you see the difference?

chasa said:

The weird thing about having some of the regulars who just really hate everything is that I see a post like the one off the grid made above and it makes absolutely no sense to me.

How do people not have the boat rocking chicken little's on ignore yet?

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OK, you put this more than a little oddly, so we're left to guess what you actually mean...

And I find it richly ironic that you're stating that what I wrote "makes absolutely no sense" to you, even though it was infinitely clearer than your post, which is at the very least abstruse.

That's "difficult to make any ****ing sense of", to you Earthlings.

But I speculate that what you were trying to imply is that ~ in your Perception ~ my post lacked context for you, because you already had Deuce on Ignore? And you're amazed that all others don't?

If that's what you were attempting to put across, I wish you had actually done so.

Given that possible interpretation of your rather vague, murky Post:

01 ~ I tend to be a Judgmental Prick, so I try to err on the side of Cutting Slack before silencing anyone.

02 ~ It is an enormous mistake to equate "Rocking the Boat" with being a "Chicken Little."

03 ~ Chicken Littles are of course Weaklings utterly incapable of enjoying Victory.

04 ~ Those who Rock the Boat, on the other hand, are Free Thinkers who aspire to Enlightenment.

05 ~ They ought never be confused for Trolls who're Addicted to Strife and never know a day's Happiness.

McClusky said:

I honestly expect the exact same thing. BB and I don't always see eye to eye. I've been right a handful of times, expectedly he's been right more. That's what makes this all fun. If your range of opinions is limited to, "this is what I expect BB to do, who am I to doubt him, so its not worth discussing otherwise" what is the point of a site like this? Any discussion is incredibly dull.

I see McCourty as more of a Reshad Jones than a ETIII (Performance wise not stylistically). If he signed a 5 year $33 million contract I'd jump for joy, but I don't have this inelastic valuation of McCourty because of how I interpret his impact vs. his replacement game to game.

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Love it, i really do. economic terminology used in a football post.

McClusky said:

The NFL isn't exactly littered with high end safeties at the moment, I mean ETIII, Harrison Smith, and Devin McCourty aren't exactly Brian Dawkins, John Lynch, Rodney Harrison, and Ed Reed. Being a top 10 player could mean vastly different things if you were lets say a receiver vs. a safety.

Players valuations could mean drastically different things in the NFL by team. If I were a Jets fan and since the Jets are a rebuilding team, the prospect of an experienced 27 year old cover safety to mentor my young high round DB's, would probably make me argue for McCourty as a $9 million APY guy. Especially since that $9 million would just be a drop in the bucket for a team with $50 million in cap space.

We're in a bit of a different spot. We have a veteran secondary, and with Revis's contract likely renegotiated we're set to spend $25 million in cap space on our top 3 corners. Is it worth quite as much to us to have McCourty covering deep for those guys in case they make a mistake? I'd argue no.

In our system we prioritize man coverage. To me making sure we lock down enough guys who can handle being tested 1x1 is important. To me finding guys who can limit the catch from happening is more important than keeping the guy who holds 25 yard gains from becoming 35 yard gains. Just my opinion.

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One weakness in your reasoning -- to a first approximation, you seem to assume that the scheme isn't going to change significantly. Actually, it does seem to change significantly every couple of years. Further, it generally changes for some number of games per year, and certainly for some number of plays per game.

I'd just like to say that Brother McClusky's series of commentary on this Thread has been as admirable for his inestimable Forbearance on top of the outstanding Reasoning & Insight he's brought to the table.

01 ~ Nobody's saying that McCourty isn't exceptional. He's made that Crystal Clear.
02 ~ It's a question of Allocation of Resources. He's also made that Crystal Clear.
03 ~ The Infernal Salary Cap forces these choices upon us.
04 ~ And while I haven't made up my own mind as yet, I applaud Brother McClusky's Courage for acknowledging that our Team is faced with some very difficult Choices.

We'd all prefer to keep everyone, and I'm sure that it's wonderful to fantasize that we can simply sign everyone without running out Team square into the Brick Wall of the Salary Cap and smashing it to pieces like the RedSkins, the Jets, and, most recently, the formerly successful Falcons...but it just ain't so.

Oswlek said:

This seems to be a nice summary of your position. It leaves open the possibility that Devin is worth $9mm in and of himself, but not if he is just going to play single high 80% of the snaps. Not an unreasonable position to hold.

So, assuming you are correct, the key question is, "what are the plans for the defense moving forward?", with secondary and tertiary questions of, "how much does having Devin give Bill the willingness to do other things?" and "how much better is Devin than Duron?"

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Excellent Argument!!

I, myself, have not yet made up my mind: I'm Awaiting Further Developments.

Ivan said:

It never ceases to amaze me that Belichick's biggest critics continue to insist how right they are, and that those who agreed with him and supported him are just blind homers when the reality is that it is the so called homers who have been the ones who were right all along.

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I would actually argue that there aren't simply 2 kinds of Fans:

01 ~ Homers (Footie Pajamas?? ) believe Mad Bill is incapable of Mistakes. "In Bill We Trust". Sheep.

02 ~ Chicken Littles believe that Mad Bill must suck because he leads their Team. No, they actually do.

03 ~ Actual Fans believe that Mad Bill is The Greatest Ever ~ he is ~ and that General Tom Brady is The Greatest Ever ~ he is ~ and that ours is The Greatest Dynasty Ever ~ given the Crippling Effects of the Salary Cap, is anyone actually arguing about that??? ~ but are willing to objectively criticize them.

Feel free to add Categories as it pleases ye, Ladies & Laddies.

Fencer said:

One weakness in your reasoning -- to a first approximation, you seem to assume that the scheme isn't going to change significantly. Actually, it does seem to change significantly every couple of years. Further, it generally changes for some number of games per year, and certainly for some number of plays per game.

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Fair enough, I would vehemently argue that if Revis is retained I don't think we're going to be venturing from our cover 1 base anytime soon though. Also, I don't really think that giving someone one of the largest contracts on your club because of his value in the chance a contingency plan is needed is necessarily the best allocation of resources. Nor, do I really see McCourty being worth that kind of money overall. After reviewing the contributions of Harmon and Tavon Wilson this season as well, I get the sense that they are both ready for larger roles as well.

The question is always going to be resource allocation. I know how counter intuitive it sounds to potentially let your 27 year old safety who most agree is one of the 10 best in the NFL go over a couple of million, but $9 million is a lot of cap space, and we don't really use him in a capacity that really warrants it. So to me if we're doing an internal valuation it makes more sense to value him at the lower end of the spectrum in terms of top 10 safeties rather than the upper end.

Off The Grid said:

OK, you put this more than a little oddly, so we're left to guess what you actually mean...

And I find it richly ironic that you're stating that what I wrote "makes absolutely no sense" to you, even though it was infinitely clearer than your post, which is at the very least abstruse.

That's "difficult to make any ****ing sense of", to you Earthlings.

But I speculate that what you were trying to imply is that ~ in your Perception ~ my post lacked context for you, because you already had Deuce on Ignore? And you're amazed that all others don't?

If that's what you were attempting to put across, I wish you had actually done so.

Given that possible interpretation of your rather vague, murky Post:

01 ~ I tend to be a Judgmental Prick, so I try to err on the side of Cutting Slack before silencing anyone.

02 ~ It is an enormous mistake to equate "Rocking the Boat" with being a "Chicken Little."

03 ~ Chicken Littles are of course Weaklings utterly incapable of enjoying Victory.

04 ~ Those who Rock the Boat, on the other hand, are Free Thinkers who aspire to Enlightenment.

05 ~ They ought never be confused for Trolls who're Addicted to Strife and never know a day's Happiness.

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You missed option 6. You are replying to someone with a really long thought out post, and a bunch of people have the person you are responding to on ignore because they are insane.

chasa said:

You missed option 6. You are replying to someone with a really long thought out post, and a bunch of people have the person you are responding to on ignore because they are insane.

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FTW, Brother Chasa!!

When Harmon is deep -- such as for example on his INT vs. the Ravens or on Kearse's circus catch in the Super Bowl -- what is McCourty doing?