Contracts to deal with

RI Patriots fan said:

I don't participate in fantasy football and I never said that Wilfork "sucks". I've said....he wasn't "great" last year (which is true, he was mediocre) and I said he wasn't worth anywhere near $8.5M in cap space.

I would gladly take him back at a reduced rate to reflect his current value going into the 2015 season.

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While just being able to come back and play was a major accomplishment, it's true that Wilfork's level of play was down from what we've gotten used to seeing. The Patriots (and Wilfork) are going to have to decide how much of that is because of permanent age/injury decline, and how much was just because big Vince was bouncing back from a serious issue.

To that end, I think it's worth noting that Wilfork led the DTs in snaps in every playoff game, and Siliga was getting heavy(ish) numbers as well.

RI Patriots fan said:

Ok, so I linked 4 sources...u dismissed one.....that leaves 3. You have nothing. Not a surprise.

I'm fine with letting Belichick decide ( as it should be) and I hope he does what he's done almost exclusively in the past which is not to overpay veterans.

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I have no problem with letting Belichick decide it. Even I think that number is to high, my objection is and has been to people knocking his play, I think they are making sh.t up. I would like to see a restructure that allows him to finish his career as a Patriot, and I believe he can still be good in more of a run stuffing role that reduces his snaps.

Ivan said:

Explain how he overpaid him when he literally earned every cent he made last season?

You have been saying this for quite a while yet Belichick thought he was good enough to play over 75% of the snaps despite being in sub packages most of . the time. The bottom line seems to be that because he's not a pass rusher he must not be very good.

As I have said numerous times I have no problem with people wanting to see him restructure, I would like it as all, but when people keep claiming he isn't very good v they are talking out of there asses. It's no different than those who called Ninkovich the worst starter in the league, it isn't bad in reality it's based upon superficial rhetoric.

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Just because Wilfork played over 75% of the snaps last year doesn't mean he played them "great". He played them in a mediocre fashion.

I could have linked Sports Illustrated, MSN sports, etc as sources who agree with me. The reality is that a vast majority of people outside of Patriotsland agree that Wilfork was mediocre last year and that he isn't worth $8.5M next year.


http://www.si.com/nfl/2015/02/13/20...ies-larry-fitzgerald-vince-wilfork-tamba-hali


Again, where are the sources outside of Patriotsland that agree with you?

the guy we really need to look at restructuring(or cutting worst case scenario) is Mayo. he has been injured the last 2 years, we have 2 young stud LB'ers and we are paying him 10million$ seems like an overpay and money we can shift over to a Revis or McCourty if we can get him to restructure

RI Patriots fan said:

Just because Wilfork played over 75% of the snaps last year doesn't mean he played them "great". He played them in a mediocre fashion.

I could have linked Sports Illustrated, MSN sports, etc as sources who agree with me. The reality is that a vast majority of people outside of Patriotsland agree that Wilfork was mediocre last year and that he isn't worth $8.5M next year.


http://www.si.com/nfl/2015/02/13/20...ies-larry-fitzgerald-vince-wilfork-tamba-hali


Again, where are the sources outside of Patriotsland that agree with you?

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I don't care what the media says about this team, I care about how they play and what Belichick and the Patriots think of them. You can cite all the Sam Monsons you want and it won't mean a thing, all that matters is how they play, and Wilfork anchored a Super Bowl defense, that's what matters. If you had your way he wouldn't have been on the team.

RIpats88 said:

the guy we really need to look at restructuring(or cutting worst case scenario) is Mayo. he has been injured the last 2 years, we have 2 young stud LB'ers and we are paying him 10million$ seems like an overpay and money we can shift over to a Revis or McCourty if we can get him to restructure

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I think Mayo will restructure, and if they ask Wilfork to and he refuses I won't have a problem with them releasing him. They will have a big hole to full but I can understand not re upping him at that rate for two more years. I would hate to see him go but I think a restructure is very reasonable at this point.

RI Patriots fan said:

Just because Wilfork played over 75% of the snaps last year doesn't mean he played them "great". He played them in a mediocre fashion.

I could have linked Sports Illustrated, MSN sports, etc as sources who agree with me. The reality is that a vast majority of people outside of Patriotsland agree that Wilfork was mediocre last year and that he isn't worth $8.5M next year.


http://www.si.com/nfl/2015/02/13/20...ies-larry-fitzgerald-vince-wilfork-tamba-hali


Again, where are the sources outside of Patriotsland that agree with you?

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You mean the same SI that claimed Belichick was using the jumbotron to cheat? And claimed that their legal substitutions were cheating? That SI?

Great resource.

Ivan said:

I don't care what the media says about this team, I care about how they play and what Belichick and the Patriots think of them. You can cite all the Sam Monsons you want and it won't mean a thing, all that matters is how they play, and Wilfork anchored a Super Bowl defense, that's what matters. If you had your way he wouldn't have been on the team.

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Translation: I couldn't find a single source to support my point of view

I'm sure that if the media supported your POV, you wouldn't quote them at all


"Anchored" a Super Bowl defense.....lol. The interior defensive line(including Wilfork) wasn't exactly the strength of this defense. It was the secondary that was the anchor.

I'm not a Vince Wilfork fan. I'm a New England Patriots fan. If the Patriots are well served by keeping Wilfork on the team at the right price...great. But if Joe Smoe is a better player and will do it for a dime less....buh bye Wilfork, hello Joe Smoe.

That's the difference. I care more about the team than the players.

Deus Irae said:

While just being able to come back and play was a major accomplishment, it's true that Wilfork's level of play was down from what we've gotten used to seeing. The Patriots (and Wilfork) are going to have to decide how much of that is because of permanent age/injury decline, and how much was just because big Vince was bouncing back from a serious issue.

To that end, I think it's worth noting that Wilfork led the DTs in snaps in every playoff game, and Siliga was getting heavy(ish) numbers as well.

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Agreed. I have a feeling when all is said and done the patriots will feel his production doesn't match his cap hit and ask him to take a paycut. In which Wilfork will tell the patriots to go "pound sand".. and he will be cut.

This does not mean he is an ineffective player, this does not mean he "sucked" last year. BB and Pioli introduced a "valuation-based" rating system for each player. They valuate a player, and don't budge from it.. leave emotion out of the equation and make pragmatic decisions that help the team now and in the future. In this case, nostalgia for the VW of the past 10 years gets in the way of valuating the roster for the next 3-5 years, it should be forgotten....

I would much prefer D-MAC for the next 5-6 years and resigning Revis/Gostowski at the expense of cutting Vince Wilfork a year too early... if he wont restructure.

RI Patriots fan said:

Translation: I couldn't find a single source to support my point of view

I'm sure that if the media supported your POV, you wouldn't quote them at all


"Anchored" a Super Bowl defense.....lol. The interior defensive line(including Wilfork) wasn't exactly the strength of this defense. It was the secondary that was the anchor.

I'm not a Vince Wilfork fan. I'm a New England Patriots fan. If the Patriots are well served by keeping Wilfork on the team at the right price...great. But if Joe Smoe is a better player and will do it for a dime less....buh bye Wilfork, hello Joe Smoe.

That's the difference. I care more about the team than the players.

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I already said I was fine with Belichick making the call, a restructure, and releasing him if he won't restructure,why would I need or want to hear what a national media that routinely trashed them thinks? I don't listen to them for any other reason so why would I start now?

You apparently need SI, Micheal Wilbon,Woody Paige and Sam Monson to do your thinking for you, I can form my opinion by actually watching them play.

Ivan said:

I already said I was fine with Belichick making the call, a restructure, and releasing him if he won't restructure,why would I need or want to hear what a national media that routinely trashed them thinks? I don't listen to them for any other reason so why would I start now?

You apparently need SI, Micheal Wilbon,Woody Paige and Sam Monson to do your thinking for you, I can form my opinion by actually watching them play.

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I came to my opinion based upon what I saw as well. I just used these links to show you that you were very much in the minority in your thinking.


I'm curious...what do you mean by "restructure"? I'm not looking to "restructure" Wilfork's compensation into some later cap year. I'm looking to cut his compensation because I think he isn't worth $8.5M for 2015 regardless of when the cap hit occurs. Are you looking to transfer the cap hit to some later year hurting us in the future or are you looking to cut his compensation to reflect his market worth in 2015? What do you think Wilfork is worth.....what deal would you give him?

supafly said:

I agree with you that it's too much, although how much "too much" is would be up for debate. I'd probably say that Wilfork is worth anywhere between 6--7.5m dollars in new money.

My concern is that I don't see how the Pats could get away with it (yet) by allowing him to walk, and I just don't think that Vince is going to agree to a pay cut again. That's why the offseason is still exciting, because we can wait it out, debate on the matter, and see what happens!

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supafly said:

I just stumbled across this line while reading an article--"The Pats must also notify Vince Wilfork by March 9 if they plan to pick up his option for 2015 and 2016."

Is this true? If so, Does it change your outlook at all?

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I know nothing about picking up any guaranteed 2016 money. If that were true, then Wilfork would have to be worth MORE than $8.5M, since he is unlikely to play in 2016 under his current contract.

patfanken said:

5. So the question becomes, not if Wilfok needs to take a cut, but is he willing to do it, and under what conditions can it be done. The obvious way would be to create a contract that would pay him that $8,5MM if he meets the production goals that would mean he'd earned it, while giving the Pats about $3-4MM in cap relief now.

Many think he wouldn't be willing to do it again. I say why not. Does anyone realistically think anyone is going to just hand $8MM guaranteed to a 35 year old DT who, while being still decent, is no longer elite. It's the classic Logan Mankins metaphor.

So what you do is show "some" love. You give him something. You give him a $3MM bonus on 3/10, with a $1MM salary that becomes guaranteed on 9/1. That's about what his current value is right now. The rest he earns if he can reach an elite level again. That I think is a fair deal and show a level of respect for his past services.

Also don't underestimate the fact that Vince isn't just some player who spends a few month in NE, and goes home. He's pretty much entrenched in the Foxboro community, so unless his next move is to Miami, I wonder if Bianca is willing to uproot her family over a few more dollars or a perceived slight

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I agree that if Wilfork produced as he did last year, he would be worth $8.5M.

I don't see how you make this work. The incentives would be LTBE since they were reached last year. If such a new contract were to be signed, the incentives would count against the 2015 cap, whether they were reached or not.

mgteich said:

I agree that if Wilfork produced as he did last year, he would be worth $8.5M.

I don't see how you make this work. The incentives would be LTBE since they were reached last year. If such a new contract were to be signed, the incentives would count against the 2015 cap, whether they were reached or not.

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That's a good point. Just off the top of my head, one way around it would be to make the incentives more team oriented. For example, if they win the superbowl, he gets the entire $8.5MM and lesser amounts for lesser success in the playoffs. I think those incentives are considered NLTBE. Also wiser heads could accomplish the desired results with other incentives that are also considered NLTBE.

The point is really, MG, who is likely to give Vince $4MM up front to play football next year. They know the injury history, his medical history, his age, and they have seen last year's film. What do you think the market is going to be for him? What's the going rate for 35 year old DT's on the decline. Personally at this stage of their respective careers, I think 'd rather have Haloti Ngata, and I wouldn't pay him anything close to $8MM and neither are the Ravens. Just a thought, what would you pay Ngata next year if he were free and Vince was gone? I might go to $5MM. How about you?

Personally I think Vince knows that next year is the end regardless. Time for him to stop taking the beating and get thin like his wife. By all rights the Pats should simply let him go. What I propose is showing respect and allowing him to go out on his own terms as a Patriot, with a contract restructure that will allow his agents to technically say he didn't take a pay cut, but provide enough cap space that the Pats need so they can afford to keep him.

Vince never struck me as a guy who was out of touch with reality. He has to know that the Pats can't possibly allow him to be a $8.5MM cap burden next year, just as Jerad Mayo knows HE can't be a $10MM cap burden. The problem is that the player's view of the market, is usually higher than reality., especially for guys on the downside. We saw this with Wes.

AndyJohnson said:

Last years #1 pick couldn't beat out Siliga, and the many veterans we had couldn't so I doubt this matters.

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Last year's first round pick had a total of 5 tackles and was coming off his 2nd ACL surgery, so they had to take it very slow with him. He often saw about 10-15 percent of live game reps. As you know, that was a special circumstance that probably won't be replicated again.

The fact remains that our DL talent, depth, and competition was certainly a factor in Siliga starting in 5/16 games last year (something you refer to as a clear cut starter). If the talent and competition improves as it should, Siliga could go back to being rotational depth---yes, of course he could.

The fact that he played more in 2014 doesn't mean anything at this point in time. We'll have to see if that stays the same moving forward or not. Many here claimed the same thing about other "starters" here in the past few years, and were proven very wrong. I'm not disputing the fact that he has progressed and may continue to do so. He's looking like a nice find at the moment, so that's really all that matters in this discussion.

Our difference in the term starter is that you're looking in the past (2014), while I'm looking in the future (2015).

patfanken said:

That's a good point. Just off the top of my head, one way around it would be to make the incentives more team oriented. For example, if they win the superbowl, he gets the entire $8.5MM and lesser amounts for lesser success in the playoffs. I think those incentives are considered NLTBE. Also wiser heads could accomplish the desired results with other incentives that are also considered NLTBE.

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He had team incentives in this last deal.

Here's the breakdown, according to Field Yates:

http://espn.go.com/blog/boston/new-.../id/4760914/breaking-down-vince-wilforks-deal

Deus Irae said:

He had team incentives in this last deal.

Here's the breakdown, according to Field Yates:

http://espn.go.com/blog/boston/new-.../id/4760914/breaking-down-vince-wilforks-deal

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We all understand that there lots of incentives in the last deal. Almost all were NLTBE bonuses and accounted for in the 2015 cap rather than the 2014 cap.

Now that Wilfork did so well last year, the same incentives would be LTBE bonuses and accounted for in the current 2015 cap. So, if we were to give him an incentive-laden contract, several things could happen.

1) Wilfork could play about as well as last year and we would pay him $8.5M or whatever the amount with incentives is. I'm not sure that Belichick wants to pay that much.

2) Wilfork could play as to NOT reach all the incentives. HOWEVER, the incentives would still count against the current cap if they were deemed "likely" to be earned.

patfanken said:

That's a good point. Just off the top of my head, one way around it would be to make the incentives more team oriented. For example, if they win the superbowl, he gets the entire $8.5MM and lesser amounts for lesser success in the playoffs. I think those incentives are considered NLTBE. Also wiser heads could accomplish the desired results with other incentives that are also considered NLTBE.

The point is really, MG, who is likely to give Vince $4MM up front to play football next year. They know the injury history, his medical history, his age, and they have seen last year's film. What do you think the market is going to be for him? What's the going rate for 35 year old DT's on the decline. Personally at this stage of their respective careers, I think 'd rather have Haloti Ngata, and I wouldn't pay him anything close to $8MM and neither are the Ravens. Just a thought, what would you pay Ngata next year if he were free and Vince was gone? I might go to $5MM. How about you?

Personally I think Vince knows that next year is the end regardless. Time for him to stop taking the beating and get thin like his wife. By all rights the Pats should simply let him go. What I propose is showing respect and allowing him to go out on his own terms as a Patriot, with a contract restructure that will allow his agents to technically say he didn't take a pay cut, but provide enough cap space that the Pats need so they can afford to keep him.

Vince never struck me as a guy who was out of touch with reality. He has to know that the Pats can't possibly allow him to be a $8.5MM cap burden next year, just as Jerad Mayo knows HE can't be a $10MM cap burden. The problem is that the player's view of the market, is usually higher than reality., especially for guys on the downside. We saw this with Wes.

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In the end, you are saying that no one would pay Wilfork $4M-$5M and that you would prefer Ngata who you think is worth $4M-$5M. So, you are trying to structure incentives that Wilfork cannot possibly reach in addition to his salary ($1M) and bonus ($3M) presumably plus workout and weight bonuses). So, I have two questions.

1) How do you structure the incentives so that he cannot reach any of them? of any significant amount.

2) How much should Belichick agree to pay, including bonuses that Wilfork might actually reach?

BOTTOM LINE
If Wilfork isn't worth more than $4M tops on the open market, it is difficult to see why Belichick would pay more than DOUBLE that amount. Sure, I could see a million or two, but not $4.5M of additional money. The issue isn't cap. Belichick can spread anything he really wanted to pay over 2 years with a sizable bonus.

RI Patriots fan said:

I came to my opinion based upon what I saw as well. I just used these links to show you that you were very much in the minority in your thinking.


I'm curious...what do you mean by "restructure"? I'm not looking to "restructure" Wilfork's compensation into some later cap year. I'm looking to cut his compensation because I think he isn't worth $8.5M for 2015 regardless of when the cap hit occurs. Are you looking to transfer the cap hit to some later year hurting us in the future or are you looking to cut his compensation to reflect his market worth in 2015? What do you think Wilfork is worth.....what deal would you give him?

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I would offer him 5 a season guaranteed if he's on the final roster. No incentives but a million bonus if they win the Super Bowl, and allow him to roll it over as long as he wants to, all he has to do is make the team.

patfanken said:

5. So the question becomes, not if Wilfok needs to take a cut, but is he willing to do it, and under what conditions can it be done. The obvious way would be to create a contract that would pay him that $8,5MM if he meets the production goals that would mean he'd earned it, while giving the Pats about $3-4MM in cap relief now.

Many think he wouldn't be willing to do it again. I say why not. Does anyone realistically think anyone is going to just hand $8MM guaranteed to a 35 year old DT who, while being still decent, is no longer elite. It's the classic Logan Mankins metaphor.

So what you do is show "some" love. You give him something. You give him a $3MM bonus on 3/10, with a $1MM salary that becomes guaranteed on 9/1. That's about what his current value is right now. The rest he earns if he can reach an elite level again. That I think is a fair deal and show a level of respect for his past services.

Also don't underestimate the fact that Vince isn't just some player who spends a few month in NE, and goes home. He's pretty much entrenched in the Foxboro community, so unless his next move is to Miami, I wonder if Bianca is willing to uproot her family over a few more dollars or a perceived slight

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While all that makes sense -- what kind of "production incentives" can one give Wilfork? The guy is never going to get much in the way of stats. The quality of his play is measured mainly by snap count (but you've correctly argued that that alone is not enough to judge him by), how often he commands double teams, how many yards runners get before Vince or somebody else tackles them, and how much his pass-rushing teammates are aided by his interior push.

And come to think of it -- what if anything does the Collins/Hightower success at A-gap blitzing say about the play of our DTs?