Devin McCourty

Deus Irae said:

That's irrelevant to the point about the defensive improvement, but crucial to pointing out the problem with your argument. You're using team stats to evaluate an individual, while ignoring the elephant in the room.

You just don't get it.

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Actually, he was using team stats to evaluate the collection of individuals who make up a team, and then hypothesizing that what he concluded was true about the individuals as a group was in particular true about a specific one of them.

Fencer said:

Asante?

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I believe that you are correct.

Deus Irae said:

That's irrelevant to the point about the defensive improvement, but crucial to pointing out the problem with your argument. You're using team stats to evaluate an individual, while ignoring the elephant in the room.


You just don't get it.

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I think you need to reread the entire thread. I started by stating the reasons why I don't believe McCourty is elite impact defender which had nothing to do with the Pats defense in aggregate. Instead it was an opinion formed purely based on the player's performance on the field. Feel free to debate me on the merits of that.

A later point I made was that if you aggregate up people's (on this site) opinions of the defense, the actual performance did not meet the sum of the perceived pieces. I feel like McCourty is one of those overrated pieces. I love the Pats, but if I'm going to say Brady is one of the best QB's ever, BB is one of the best coaches ever, Gronk is the best TE in the league, Revis is a future HOF CB, Jamie Collins is one of the best athletes in the NFL, ect. At some point the rational side of my mind needs to balance some of the reasons why we don't blow everyone out by 40 points every week. Something has to give. After watching enough film I found that I don't think McCourty's actual play holds up to what his reputation says it is.

Ultimately the Pats didn't have the best defense in the NFL last season, you can slice it however you'd want, but ultimately the standard doesn't hold up. I love how talented we are, but the roster as presently constructed isn't sustainable forever. I'd love McCourty back, but ultimately I think he's closer to Antoine Bethea and Rashad Jones rather than ETIII or Smith. Not everyone on the Pats is elite, and in this case I think the Pats need to hold firm on this valuation.

PFF

Ivan said:

PFF

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What exactly are you referring to?

McClusky said:

After watching enough film .

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Where are you getting your All-22 from?

Bruins29 said:

Where are you getting your All-22 from?

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I have NFL Rewind

The Gr8est said:

What's your upper limit on Jamie Collins in 2 years if he continues to progress like has so far?

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I think Jamie Collins has a much higher upside than DMC. Other teams will go after him hard as a FA.

McClusky said:

I think you need to reread the entire thread. I started by stating the reasons why I don't believe McCourty is elite impact defender which had nothing to do with the Pats defense in aggregate. Instead it was an opinion formed purely based on the player's performance on the field. Feel free to debate me on the merits of that.

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I've read every single post in the thread. Your argument just sucks.

A later point I made was that if you aggregate up people's (on this site) opinions of the defense, the actual performance did not meet the sum of the perceived pieces.

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That's a perfect example of where your argument sucks. Post-bye week, which is when Browner was back and the team had the chance to work him fully into the system, the Patriots allowed .5 ppg more than Seattle ended up with. That's the same Seattle defense that was being ranked among the all-time great defenses by many.

Deus Irae said:

That's a perfect example of where your argument sucks. Post-bye week, which is when Browner was back and the team had the chance to work him fully into the system, the Patriots allowed .5 ppg more than Seattle ended up with. That's the same Seattle defense that was being ranked among the all-time great defenses by many.

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Let's examine the health at that point. From memory:

• Mayo -- out.
• Jones -- out and then back at what we hope was less than full strength.
• Siliga -- out and then back at what we suspect was less than full strength.
• Easley -- out, or might as well have been.
• Dennard -- presumably hampered, eventually out.
• Hightower -- playing through injury
• Most others -- generally healthy, but there were some dinged-up moments

That could all have been much worse, but it wasn't amazingly great either. So from a health standpoint the team results probably aren't too misleading. Nor was the opposition a bunch of cupcakes. So if the statistical results indicated a strong defense, the defense probably was actually strong.

McCourty is elite.

McCourty is elite.

McClusky said:

What exactly are you referring to?

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Your post.

Oswlek said:

Or just a lack of anything really noteworthy to discuss. Does there really need to be a thread on every subject imaginable?

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You don't think that the Retention/Divestiture of one of the Game's best CenterFielders warrants a Thread?

McClusky said:

I have NFL Rewind

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I have a puppy.

McCourty is definitely elite. I suspect the Patriots won't mess around and will lock him down at fair market value. And no, that isn't $5-7mm a year.

McClusky said:

I think you need to reread the entire thread. I started by stating the reasons why I don't believe McCourty is elite impact defender which had nothing to do with the Pats defense in aggregate. Instead it was an opinion formed purely based on the player's performance on the field. Feel free to debate me on the merits of that.

A later point I made was that if you aggregate up people's (on this site) opinions of the defense, the actual performance did not meet the sum of the perceived pieces. I feel like McCourty is one of those overrated pieces. I love the Pats, but if I'm going to say Brady is one of the best QB's ever, BB is one of the best coaches ever, Gronk is the best TE in the league, Revis is a future HOF CB, Jamie Collins is one of the best athletes in the NFL, ect. At some point the rational side of my mind needs to balance some of the reasons why we don't blow everyone out by 40 points every week. Something has to give. After watching enough film I found that I don't think McCourty's actual play holds up to what his reputation says it is.

Ultimately the Pats didn't have the best defense in the NFL last season, you can slice it however you'd want, but ultimately the standard doesn't hold up. I love how talented we are, but the roster as presently constructed isn't sustainable forever. I'd love McCourty back, but ultimately I think he's closer to Antoine Bethea and Rashad Jones rather than ETIII or Smith. Not everyone on the Pats is elite, and in this case I think the Pats need to hold firm on this valuation.

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Honestly, I think everything you are saying about our D can be put on the lack of an elite pass rush... and not on McCourty's shoulders.

Very short list of very fixable Needs for 2015:

-Strong Safety (or that player to play opposite McCourty)
-Pass rush (and hopefully Easley is one of the building blocks)
-Offensive line

While an extremely amateurish summation, am I really that far off? It seems to me that barring some contract snafus we have the chance to really focus some talent acquisitions into these positions of need.

...even if once again we are drafting 32nd overall (again baby)

Fencer said:

Let's examine the health at that point. From memory:

• Mayo -- out.
• Jones -- out and then back at what we hope was less than full strength.
• Siliga -- out and then back at what we suspect was less than full strength.
• Easley -- out, or might as well have been.
• Dennard -- presumably hampered, eventually out.
• Hightower -- playing through injury
• Most others -- generally healthy, but there were some dinged-up moments

That could all have been much worse, but it wasn't amazingly great either. So from a health standpoint the team results probably aren't too misleading. Nor was the opposition a bunch of cupcakes. So if the statistical results indicated a strong defense, the defense probably was actually strong.

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Plus the fact that NE faced a far more difficult string of teams over that period. Seattle played one good offense - Philly - with the rest of the teams being mediocre even before being on their 2nd or 3rd string quarterback.

Off The Grid said:

You don't think that the Retention/Divestiture of one of the Game's best CenterFielders warrants a Thread?

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When there is news, sure!

Fencer said:

Let's examine the health at that point. From memory:

• Mayo -- out.
• Jones -- out and then back at what we hope was less than full strength.
• Siliga -- out and then back at what we suspect was less than full strength.
• Easley -- out, or might as well have been.
• Dennard -- presumably hampered, eventually out.
• Hightower -- playing through injury
• Most others -- generally healthy, but there were some dinged-up moments

That could all have been much worse, but it wasn't amazingly great either. So from a health standpoint the team results probably aren't too misleading. Nor was the opposition a bunch of cupcakes. So if the statistical results indicated a strong defense, the defense probably was actually strong.

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I'm not even talking health. I'm just talking Browner being available and the team being able to run the envisioned defense. It's not even as if there should be any real issue acknowledging the situation, given the obvious difference in the defensive style, and level of play upon Browner's return.