Trading up makes too much sense

manxman2601 said:

Do you see him playing the 7-tech or are you just talking 5-tech? It was noticeable that he didn't take a single edge snap in the SB (game or practice). He can play 7,5,3 and maybe even 1 one day but I'm not sure the NFL see it that way. I think he'll be a 3-tech for most teams, maybe a 5-tech for base 3-4 one gapping teams. Don't forget, he's shorter than Odighizuwa.

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That's how I see it, at least for the Pats.. Put Hardison and Easley on the field together and you have 2 guys who can play 7, 5, 3 and even 1 technique. That lets you do an awful lot of things. I think BB will value that kind of versatility, and would move both of them around frequently to create mismatches and make other teams adjust. It would be like having Collins and Hightower, but on the DL.

The following was a nice read on Hardison:

http://www.footballinsiders.com/marcus-hardisons-versatility-makes-him-a-valuable-commodity/

I don't see anyone else among the bigger linemen with that degree of versatility. Maybe Mario Edwards, but his inconsistency scares me, and I'm not sure he's nearly as explosive as Hardison. It's to your credit that you've been so far out in front of this one.

mayoclinic said:

That's how I see it, at least for the Pats.. Put Hardison and Easley on the field together and you have 2 guys who can play 7, 5, 3 and even 1 technique. That lets you do an awful lot of things. I think BB will value that kind of versatility, and would move both of them around frequently to create mismatches and make other teams adjust. It would be like having Collins and Hightower, but on the DL.

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Well I'm all for BB drafting Hardison obviously but I do think he'll need some time to develop in our complicated system.

Armstead is seemingly the most polarizing player in the draft, and i get why. A player with his natural abilities and real lack of production should be worrying, especially for a potential top 10 pick.

If he does somehow fall, I wonder if the Pats relationship with his brother Armond is a positive or negative for drafting the younger brother. I never heard anything bad about Armond when he was here, but the disappointment from that situation may carry over.

I.M. Fletcher said:

Armstead is seemingly the most polarizing player in the draft, and i get why. A player with his natural abilities and real lack of production should be worrying, especially for a potential top 10 pick.

If he does somehow fall, I wonder if the Pats relationship with his brother Armond is a positive or negative for drafting the younger brother. I never heard anything bad about Armond when he was here, but the disappointment from that situation may carry over.

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Not quite top 10 but Dontari Poe and Michael Brockers spring to mind at DT. Ziggy Ansah is another, albeit as a DE.

manxman2601 said:

Not quite top 10 but Dontari Poe and Michael Brockers spring to mind at DT. Ziggy Ansah is another, albeit as a DE.

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He wouldnt be the first, but some of the other options had some mitigating factors. I liked the article that BR had on him, and a quote from a scout that said he would be the best LT in the draft if someone would smack in the head and convince he should be playing offence. He does seem to have the more prototypical LT body frame, and the feet, and hasnt really shown combative hands yet.

Now, like many others, the light will come on eventually, but his career is going to be really interesting to follow.

I.M. Fletcher said:

He wouldnt be the first, but some of the other options had some mitigating factors. I liked the article that BR had on him, and a quote from a scout that said he would be the best LT in the draft if someone would smack in the head and convince he should be playing offence. He does seem to have the more prototypical LT body frame, and the feet, and hasnt really shown combative hands yet.

Now, like many others, the light will come on eventually, but his career is going to be really interesting to follow.

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Watch what he does to the RG at 0:48. That's what you might be getting with the right coaching.

manxman2601 said:

Well I'm all for BB drafting Hardison obviously but I do think he'll need some time to develop in our complicated system.

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I pretty much assume that all rookies will need some time to develop in our complicated system.

My issue with the DTs is that none of them offer much of a pass rush threat - they are all run stoppers without the size or strength to take on double teams. In my book, that's not a first rounder. Amsted is horribly snow at the snap but he has genuine strength to go with his length and athleticism. He's the one I think could be a first rounder because he offers starting 5-tech upside.

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I have it in my head that the foremost need for the Pats is a 6'5, 320lb DT. Run stopping is a good thing. I see Easley as becoming the 6'2 penetrator.

But you are right none of the guys who are being talked about now who have any chance of getting to us, look like formidable pass rushers. But isn't the real need is for pocket pushers, as opposed to being the actual sacker.

2. I think we can use four of the first five picks, with one pick used to trade up perhaps. After that we're probably looking at PS .

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You'd think, but every year, someone from the 3rd day (or beyond) comes in and surprises us.

3. BB will see how the board falls. It would be interesting to know if he has any expectations at all pre-draft

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. No, I'm pretty sure BB would love to continue to improve his OL and DL in this draft, but I don't think he'd make a drastic move unless he really, really wanted a guy......and trying to figure out who THAT might be is a mystery. The last guy I successfully predicted for the Pats in the first round was Vince Wilfork

4. I have two pass rushers that I'm targeting early: Bud Dupree who has Jamie Collins athleticism but the length to play on the edge. And Odighizuwa who has incredible strength and athleticism and projects well as a LDE and into a Michael Bennett interior rusher role. Both will probably be much better than Zach Moore and Buchanan.

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Both sound very interesting, but like I said, would either be better than Collins or Hightower, who would now be available to rush, with Mayo coming back. A

5. I can see that there's a need at DT, I'm just not keep on the value at 32. Amsted is worthy of the pick at 32 but I don't believe Goldman, Phillips or Davis are. Having said that, all the aforementioned won't be there at 64 so it really comes down to how much BB wants to reach. I don't see the need in the same way as others do unless both Branch and Wilfork aren't on the team.

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I don't see Branch being back. Too old, and not that exceptional, and I'm getting more worried about Vince the more I read. I guess at least one will be around (Vince if he restructures, or Branch if Vince is gone) Either way the need will be there at DT, and high end guys are exceedingly rare and go fast

6. We went from 31 to 25 with a 4th and from 27 to 21 with a 3rd. I suspect a 2nd or our 3rd and TBs 4th gets us up to 20. Having said that, the first round talent drops off between 15-20 so it could be a buyers market in terms of moving up.

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If our 3rd and TB 4th gets us to 20, I'd be OK to do that, but it would have to net us an immediate starter. Its just all so speculative.

7. I'm quite happy picking at 32

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Well, when you put it THAT way, how can I disagree. But still....90% of all the draft talk is about the top 10-15 players. Don't you ever get tired of knowing none of them are ever going to the Patriots

patfanken said:

90% of all the draft talk is about the top 10-15 players. Don't you ever get tired of knowing none of them are ever going to the Patriots

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Not really. I love the "noise". It's a great distraction. The majority of teams use the national boards and are influenced by the media hype, so they spend high picks over and over again on over-hyped players. Meanwhile there will always be values who slip through the cracks.

patfanken said:

I have it in my head that the foremost need for the Pats is a 6'5, 320lb DT. Run stopping is a good thing. I see Easley as becoming the 6'2 penetrator.

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It might be the foremost need, I don't think so but I can understand why people do, but if the talent/value don't line up then you are reaching. the way I look at the first round is this. How difficult will it be to replace the player you've drafted in the first round when their first contract renewal comes around? Elite OGs, all-pro RBs and very explosive EDGE prospects are hard to replace. Run-stopping DTs aren't. That's why I don't grade them as first-rounders.

But you are right none of the guys who are being talked about now who have any chance of getting to us, look like formidable pass rushers. But isn't the real need is for pocket pushers, as opposed to being the actual sacker.

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That supposes that these guys are that. If you think they are then I respect your evaluation and you'd be right to take them at 32. I'm not convinced. I like Malcom Brown and he and Jordan Phillips have the best chance but I don't like Phillips' instincts and I'm not convinced Brown can handle double teams in the way Big Vince can.

You'd think, but every year, someone from the 3rd day (or beyond) comes in and surprises us.

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Right. But a surprise is a surprise as in not expected.

No, I'm pretty sure BB would love to continue to improve his OL and DL in this draft, but I don't think he'd make a drastic move unless he really, really wanted a guy......and trying to figure out who THAT might be is a mystery. The last guy I successfully predicted for the Pats in the first round was Vince Wilfork

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My point was that I don't think BB targets a specific player or strategy before the draft. They grade the players and then see how the draft unfolds.

Both sound very interesting, but like I said, would either be better than Collins or Hightower, who would now be available to rush, with Mayo coming back.

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Hang on! You just moved the bar there. In your last post it was Buchanan and Zach Moore.

I don't see Branch being back. Too old, and not that exceptional, and I'm getting more worried about Vince the more I read. I guess at least one will be around (Vince if he restructures, or Branch if Vince is gone) Either way the need will be there at DT, and high end guys are exceedingly rare and go fast

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Assume one of Branch or Wilfork are here next year. That means that we have a DT rotation of Wilfork/Branch - Siliga - Easley - Chris Jones. That's a SB winning rotation. I just don't see the desperate need to upgrade. I'm a huge fan of Marcus Hardison who should be available between the 2nd and 4th. I'm fine with trading up from 64 for a DT that falls if necessary. Or a promising depth guy like Joey Mbu.

If our 3rd and TB 4th gets us to 20, I'd be OK to do that, but it would have to net us an immediate starter. Its just all so speculative.

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Agreed. Until we've had the combine and FA, this is mostly meaningless. Lets face it, if Revis and Mccourty sign elsewhere, this discussion is moot because we'll be looking at DBs.

Well, when you put it THAT way, how can I disagree. But still....90% of all the draft talk is about the top 10-15 players. Don't you ever get tired of knowing none of them are ever going to the Patriots

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I'd love to look at those guys for a change. It'll probably have to be through a trade though. And then BB would trade back anyway.

patfanken said:

It really sucks to pick 32nd in every round.

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"Occupational Hazzard. My Apologies, ****** ******."



*Yes, I know that "hazard" is ostensibly spelled with one "z". I require two.

Off The Grid said:

*Yes, I know that "hazard" is ostensibly spelled with one "z". I require two.

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So did the Dukes.

I.M. Fletcher said:

Armstead is seemingly the most polarizing player in the draft, and i get why. A player with his natural abilities and real lack of production should be worrying, especially for a potential top 10 pick.

If he does somehow fall, I wonder if the Pats relationship with his brother Armond is a positive or negative for drafting the younger brother. I never heard anything bad about Armond when he was here, but the disappointment from that situation may carry over.

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I would have to lean towards Armond's time in Foxboro as a positive. He gained effusive praise from BB when he retired after getting a shot out of the CFL. The fact that BB protected his privacy could only be a plus. His quotes were vague yet telling.

"Armond worked extremely hard since joining us last February. He's had a lot of adversity personally that he's had to deal with -- unusual compared to most other players -- but he's always had a great attitude, worked hard and really did everything we asked him to do. While it is unfortunate he will not be able to play football, Armond is an outstanding young man who has a very bright future in whatever path he chooses.”-BB

http://www.cbssports.com/nfl/eye-on-football/24624016/patriots-first-year-dl-armond-armstead-retires

Did we ever find out what Armsted's story was?

manxman2601 said:

Did we ever find out what Armsted's story was?

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You mean Armond Amstead? He had an unspecified soft tissue infection in early 2013, which caused him to miss the season. Not clear if it was related to his prior heart issues. He ended up needing to be on long term blood thinners, which is why he eventually retired.

mayoclinic said:

You mean Armond Amstead? He had an unspecified soft tissue infection in early 2013, which caused him to miss the season. Not clear if it was related to his prior heart issues. He ended up needing to be on long term blood thinners, which is why he eventually retired.

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thanks.


Good to have you back by the way.

JerseyShore99 said:

Coming off a title with limited (hopefully) roster opening and a large amount of picks, NE will either trade up (and look splashy, make noise for the SB champs), trade for the future (acquire picks for '16 and beyond), or take some injury red flags that can be "red-shirted" or other reasonable red flags, this can apply to (similar like Easley or Lattimore):
Todd Gurley, RB, UGA (torn ACL) (Late Day 1, early Day 2 pick)
Ifo Ekpre-Olomu, CB, Oregon (torn ACL) (Early Day 3 pick)
Cebric Ogbuehi, OG, TAMU (knee injury) (Late Day1, Early Day 2 pick)

And I'll say this right now:
Out of all the red flag players I just saw listed for off-field issues, DGB is the most appealing (not necesarily for Day 1 or even 2)

Kraft won't take a woman beater, or a guy accused of it (cross Winston, Karlos Williams, Frank Clark, AJ Johnson off your boards right now)

This leaves red flag players such as DGB (weed, assault, burglary), Marcus Peters (dismissed from program), and Tevin McDonald (weed) to us, BB has taken guys accused of assault of burglary as late as last summer (Nu'keese Richardson) and has pot heads on his current roster (Blount), with a CB stable likely of Revis, Browner, Arrington, Ryan, and Butler next year, Marcus Peters will not be in Foxboro anytime soon, Tevin McDonald, a Day 3 CB in a football family, may appeal to NE but there will definitely be safer options, but a top 10 talent and possibly the most talented WR available in DGB will certainly appeal to NE when he's available Day 2 and maybe 3

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This deserves more attention

MrNathanDrake said:

We simply don't have enough roster spots for multiple rookies.


Josh Boyce (4th rd pick) couldn't make the team this year.

Aaron Dobson (2nd rd pick) was a healthy scratch for 8 weeks this season. He was quickly IR'd even though his hamstring was not torn.

Alfonso Dennard mysteriously fell off the depth chart and then got IR'd.

James White (4th rd pick) couldn't get on the game-day roster despite high praise this past off season.



Is it really worth drafting numerous guys in the 4th to 7th rds when they might not make the team? Seems like a waste of draft picks. It would be better to trade those to move up and get 2-3 impact players rather than drafting a bunch of players and then cutting them.

If we do trade up, who would you want in the 20-25 range?

I think we have to go DT. Easley is a DE/DT hydrib, not a pure DT and not a strong run stuffer. Our defense was weak against the run and Wilfork is getting older and has maybe 1 year left (if he isn't cut or traded this offseason).

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Trading up makes little sense to me this year. We do not have any gapping holes to fill as we did in prior years. Every year teams will have draft picks that did not contribute, thus, Boyce, Dobson, Dennard, and White's names don't sway my thinking. BTW, an undrafted rookie provided us with a Super Bowl victory.

JerseyShore99 said:

This deserves more attention

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Bear in mind that Matt Miller says DGB's red flags are the worst he's ever seen and that despite being the "next Randy Moss", Missouri felt the need to kick him off the roster. It'll come down to interviews and if BB does draft him then presumably he'll have shown the remorse necessary. But, the guy is an idiot and whilst I'll be excited by his talent if we do draft him, I really hope we don't. Women beaters that get away with it don't deserve good things.

If we release Wilfork, I can see a slight trade up if BB likes one of the DT's. A couple of teams just in front of us might to dt; Dallas, GB and Indy. Carolina at 25 seems a trade candidate. They could use the extra pick since they already should be drafting much higher.