Patriots need to keep Revis, even if it means picking up year 2

Oswlek said:

What does this question even mean? Butler is an ERFA, he has no choice but to accept whatever tender NE offers or sit out a year in which case he'll be in the exact same situation come 2016. He doesn't factor into this discussion in any way.

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I made the Buttler correction above but ..... that's not even part of the question you quoted????

JR4 said:

I made the Buttler correction above but ..... that's not even part of the question you quoted????

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I just went back and checked and the part I quoted is regarding Butler.

I'm not sure why you are getting so worked up about this. NE is a little over the cap with $25mm of space allocated toward Revis, which will either be cut down by $10mm if he stays or $20mm if he goes. It also includes high numbers for Mayo/Vince that no one expects to stay, as well as a number for Solder that will come down if he signs an extension. Just those four players can free up $15mm in cap room, and if it means they lose Vereen and Branch, so be it.

Do you think the Patriots would have handed out the Cannon extension if they thought $3mm in space may have been the difference between keeping Revis or losing him?

Oswlek said:

I just went back and checked and the part I quoted is regarding Butler.

I'm not sure why you are getting so worked up about this. NE is a little over the cap with $25mm of space allocated toward Revis, which will either be cut down by $10mm if he stays or $20mm if he goes. It also includes high numbers for Mayo/Vince that no one expects to stay, as well as a number for Solder that will come down if he signs an extension. Just those four players can free up $15mm in cap room, and if it means they lose Vereen and Branch, so be it.

Do you think the Patriots would have handed out the Cannon extension if they thought $3mm in space may have been the difference between keeping Revis or losing him?

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I believe you are over simplifying the situation. I'm not going though all the numbers again.
We'll see how they work it out. I won't be surprised if Revis is gone.

BTW: My question was
"That has been the consensus on this board but is it what the Patriots head office is thinking?"
which is what you quoted. Was that a question about Buttler? maybe you just didn't quote the whole post.

JR4 said:

I believe you are over simplifying the situation. I'm not going though all the numbers again.
We'll see how they work it out. I won't be surprised if Revis is gone.

BTW: My question was
"That has been the consensus on this board but is it what the Patriots head office is thinking?"
which is what you quoted. Was that a question about Buttler? maybe you just didn't quote the whole post.

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Yes, that was the question portion relating to Butler. Since it was your comment and I stayed entirely on topic, there was no need for additional quotations.

I've already seen the numbers you posted, as well as all the others posted by other knowledgeable members. It seems pretty straightforward to me. Again, the team went into the Revis pact knowing full well his second year was just a placeholder and needed to be redone. Do you really think they would have used cap space on Cannon and Chung without having a plan to accommodate Revis as well?

Oswlek said:

Yes, that was the question portion relating to Butler. Since it was your comment and I stayed entirely on topic, there was no need for additional quotations.

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This makes sense.

Oswlek said:

I've already seen the numbers you posted, as well as all the others posted by other knowledgeable members. It seems pretty straightforward to me. Again, the team went into the Revis pact knowing full well his second year was just a placeholder and needed to be redone. Do you really think they would have used cap space on Cannon and Chung without having a plan to accommodate Revis as well?

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I am not a mind reader. I do not know what they were thinking and neither do you.
Knowing what it would take and the effect on the roster, maybe they came to a conclusion back then that there was no way to keep Revis and decided to move on.

If they are going to keep Revis my guess is there will be starters cut and/or not extended. If they keep
Revis, they may be able to avoid some of this blood letting if they get enough players to re-do their deals.
But this would have a negative effect on CAP issues in the future and going into CAP debt in not something I see BB approving. It will be very interesting to see how they handle this.

I doubt we could get Revis in the $13-14M range on the open market, although, as I suggested in my original post, that may be attainable if we pick up year 2 and then try to leverage his non-free agency into an extension.

A few things to consider:

• This is a weak cornerback market. Someone wrote a thread about the free agent prize, Seattle's Maxwell. In other years, he would probably be the 5th or 6th best CB in free agency. The supply and demand highly favors Revis.
• Peterson's and Sherman's contracts have been brought up. Neither one of them actually got their contracts in free agency. When a player signs an extension with his own team, he does take less money, partly as insurance, since this assures he will still get a lot of money even if he gets injured or declines before free agency. This is like the Gronkowski contract; he would obviously have gotten a bigger deal had he been a free agent after 2011, which is when the Pats extended him.
• Either way, in free agency, the market is set by how much a team is willing to pay, NOT based on comparable players and "what is fair and reasonable." That is why it is very risky to let Revis explore the market, and I think a lot of people will be disappointed if they think he is going to test the waters and then come back to the Patriots for anything less than $15M guaranteed over three years, and possibly more.
• For those of you who don't think Belichick would pay big-time money to Revis (that is, a lot for an extension if we don't cut him), you are comparing apples to oranges. Many of Belichick's past "drawing the line" decisions have been smart because he recognizes that the best player on the open market is not necessarily the best player in the league at their position. Examples like Mike Wallace and Mario Williams demonstrate that these free agents were nowhere near the top at their respective positions but still commanded the most money, simply because they were the best option at the time. Revis, on the other hand, is actually the best cornerback in the league. Other teams realize this as well; it is very rare for someone of this stature to hit the free agency market because teams will do everything they can to prevent that. Revis's value will skyrocket.

This is really simple

If revis wants to play to win more rings, he will take a 5 year 70 million dollar contract with 49 million garantee more or less with the Patriots

If he wants just to get pay, then he will probably get 5 years 100 million dollar contract with 60 million garantee more or less with another team. I really don't think the Patriots would do a deal like that in my opinion.

Either way, we will find out about this in the next 45 days.

JR4 said:

I am not a mind reader.

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You don't need to be, the situation is readily apparent.

JR4 said:

maybe they came to a conclusion back then that there was no way to keep Revis and decided to move on.

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Jonathan's comments just a week ago contradict this.

JR4 said:

If they are going to keep Revis my guess is there will be starters cut and/or not extended.

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Again, if keeping Revis was such a close call that it would mean cutting starters, they never would have given a backup tackle $9mm for two years. It just wouldn't have happened. A case could be made that part of their plan for freeing up resources is cutting Solder, but that alone would only free up about $4.5mm (+$7.4mm for Solder, -$3mm for Cannon) but even much of that was taken up by Chung.

To date, the team's behavior isn't consistent with your concern.

Oswlek said:

You don't need to be, the situation is readily apparent.



Jonathan's comments just a week ago contradict this.



Again, if keeping Revis was such a close call that it would mean cutting starters, they never would have given a backup tackle $9mm for two years. It just wouldn't have happened. A case could be made that part of their plan for freeing up resources is cutting Solder, but that alone would only free up about $4.5mm (+$7.4mm for Solder, -$3mm for Cannon) but even much of that was taken up by Chung.

To date, the team's behavior isn't consistent with your concern.

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We'll see. Instead of just assuming, "they must have a plan", you show us how they can make this work.
I don't think you have a clue how they will handle this situation even though you say it is
" readily apparent". You keep inferring that because of contracts given, the signing Revis is
not "such a close call". Again put up your numbers to verify such an inference. You've seen my numbers.
I would be very happy if you can show us how it can be done with out cutting starters and/or having to re-do many contracts. (I don't think you can - I know just have faith)

JR4 said:

We'll see. Instead of just assuming, "they must have a plan", you show us how they can make this work.
I don't think you have a clue how they will handle this situation even though you say it is
" readily apparent". You keep inferring that because of contracts given, the signing Revis is
not "such a close call". Again put up your numbers to verify such an inference. You've seen my numbers.
I would be very happy if you can show us how it can be done with out cutting starters and/or having to re-do many contracts. (I don't think you can - I know just have faith)

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But you've basically been assuming that the Krafts weren't being truthful about bringing Revis back, so how is your position any better?

JR4 said:

We'll see. Instead of just assuming, "they must have a plan", you show us how they can make this work.
I don't think you have a clue how they will handle this situation even though you say it is
" readily apparent". You keep inferring that because of contracts given, the signing Revis is
not "such a close call". Again put up your numbers to verify such an inference. You've seen my numbers.
I would be very happy if you can show us how it can be done with out cutting starters and/or having to re-do many contracts. (I don't think you can - I know just have faith)

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Mg already outlined a course of action and I demonstrated how alterations to just four contracts free up over $15mm without cutting anyone, so you've gotten what you are asking for.

As for faith, I have no shame in admitting that there is a good deal of that, but it is faith grounded in experience and in the clear picture painted by the team's actions. Do you think it is more reasonable to assume they don't have a plan?

also another point I would like to add is that the longer it takes, the more it means Revis is leaning towards the money option.

Brunitus said:

also another point I would like to add is that the longer it takes, the more it means Revis is leaning towards the money option.

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They havent met yet and I believe they have to wait till march to announce a deal.

I am very confident they will get a deal done.

Deus Irae said:

But you've basically been assuming that the Krafts weren't being truthful about bringing Revis back, so how is your position any better?

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Never said Krafts were not being truthful. Please show Kraft quote you are thinking about. I heard them
said everyone new Revis second year was a placeholder and that they really would like him back. I didn't
hear them commit to cutting starters and redo lots of contracts to make it happen.

JR4 said:

Never said Krafts were not being truthful. Please show Kraft quote you are thinking about. I heard them
said everyone new Revis second year was a placeholder and that they really would like him back. I didn't
hear them commit to cutting starters and redo lots of contracts to make it happen.

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And, of course, you did exactly what you're chastizing Oswlek for doing: you speculated. You just did it in the opposite direction, speculating that the Patriots weren't going to do what they've said they plan to do.

Kind of the point.

Note Curran's recent report:

Currently, there’s nothing to report on negotiations with players such as McCourty because of the Revis dilemma.

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http://www.csnne.com/new-england-patriots/waiting-revis-delays-patriots-business-decisions

Miguel's already laid out a scenario which deals with your points:

http://www.patsfans.com/salary-cap/

Brunitus said:

also another point I would like to add is that the longer it takes, the more it means Revis is leaning towards the money option.

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Did you expect they'd reach a deal in a few days?

Oswlek said:

Mg already outlined a course of action and I demonstrated how alterations to just four contracts free up over $15mm without cutting anyone, so you've gotten what you are asking for.

As for faith, I have no shame in admitting that there is a good deal of that, but it is faith grounded in experience and in the clear picture painted by the team's actions. Do you think it is more reasonable to assume they don't have a plan?

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I've seen that method of redoing lots of contracts assuming the 10 players are willing to do that.
That scenario also assumed Revis new deal would save 12 to 13 Million from his current 25M cap hit!
Also consider the time element to get all that done. How many agents involved trying to get the
best deal for themselves and clients.

I got a simple way, cut both Wilfork and Solder and forget trying to sign McCourty go.

Like I said, it will be interesting and if they get to keep Revis I'm sure going to be very happy and
will be very interested in how they did it.

JR4 said:

That scenario also assumed Revis new deal would save 12 to 13 Million from his current 25M cap hit!

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He mentions it, but doesn't rely on it. Any deal is certainly going to save $10mm so I'm not sure why you are being so dramatic about a couple million.

JR4 said:

How many agents involved trying to get the
best deal for themselves and clients.

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Agents who want their client to remain gainfully employed? Or those whose clients tell them they want to do the deal?

You also are making the false assumption that any of the moves proposed by Mg would negatively impact the players.

JR4 said:

I got a simple way, cut both Wilfork and Solder and forget trying to sign McCourty go.

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This makes no sense whatsoever. Why are you letting go of three starters to have Revis and $25mm of extra cap space? Who are you spending that money on? Why not just spend it on the guys you are letting go in the form of an extension (and cap savings) of Solder and a restructure of Vince?

I think Revis leaves. That's ok. Not that much of a drop off to Malcolm butler and dennard.

I'm only half kidding.

I think they'll be fine without him.

JR4 said:

You really believe PATS are going to re-work ALL those contracts???
Plus please show how you are going to get Revis TOTAL CAP (5M already done deal)
down to 12M. Just show me a sample contract Revis would buy into to achieve this.
If you think Revis will buy into a Backload contract maybe we should just say all things are
possible in cyberspace and just wait for the chips to fall.

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1) I did NOT say that the patriots would re-dork all the contracts, or even as much as it would take. I was merely showing the possibilities, as Miguel has done several times.

2) With regard to a Revis, I have several times posted a contract that would save $12M in cap room.
3rs/$43M
$21M bonus
salaries: $1M, $10M, $11M
guaranteed portion of salary: $1M, $4M, $4M for a total guarantee of $30M

2016 and 2017 salaries can be adjusted up or down as needed without changes to cap hit of $13M ($5M plus $1M plus $7M),

Check out Peterson's contract. It is very similar to this with a first year salary of under $1M.