John Clayton having trouble with reality

patfanken said:

OK Bob, what would you suggest. Personally I think the truth would work well if utilized in a well thought out intensive strategy. But F**k it, at this point, I'm up for anything.

Hell, If I had Bob Kraft's money I'd have Irsay, Gregson, and that former Jets hack under 24 hour surveillance, waiting for them to do what honor less hypocrites do. and return the favor

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I don't really care what you or anyone else does, I'm not saying you should do anything more or less. I'm up for any strategy but let me give an example of why the truth is just one tool, but not the only one we should use. And there's some examples in the post below how rumors have been more effective than facts in many ways.

Did the Steelers do steroids in the 70's? Everyone says they did, but I have never researched it, and I bet almost nobody else has either. Maybe they didn't, maybe they did, but nobody cares. It's just accepted, though the facts are probably available for those that are interested. The only people who care are probably Steeler fans who will look it up.

My point is I'm not just going use my time to complain about the media lying on this board. If that's all I'm going to do I can use that time writing a complaint to ESPN, or writing to a reporter, or getting Wikipedia changed because it's more effective. I'm not under the delusion I'm changing the world, just saying it's more effective than what I've been doing.

Bobsyouruncle said:

I agree, I think they went with the tried and true tactic of ignoring it and letting it die. Feed it and you create more stories. Does anyone know about shoulder gate? That scandal was gone a month after it started.

But they were wrong because that was a tactic for the pre-internet era. This could be a longer diatribe but the short answer is that a new tactic is needed. Rather than typing into an echo chamber we can be more productive. We can complain about the fact that everyone can get a voice out on the Internet and quality has gone down, but then ignore that it's a double edged sword. We can get stuff out almost as easily as everyone else like Clayton. And IMO we should.

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What I still don't get is accepting such a high punishment for camera-gate.

The highest fines possible to both the team and BB made it certain to every non-Pats fan that such a harsh punishment wouldn't have been necessary if the issue was not that big a deal.\

I am one of those who was pleading for some kind of a fight against that fine and allegations. In fact, a few of us in this forum tried to design something (FRAME or something like that) but it did not take any traction.

And in the above I'm NOT saying we should lie. I'm saying researching facts and posting them here just isn't going to do much. If the media has a narrative on Deflategate created from rumors then there's nothing wrong with putting forward another plausible theory. Doesn't matter if we can prove its a fact or not, they couldn't prove their rumor either.

What fans have mostly done

In the last few weeks we have gone from the Patriots definitely deflated footballs and should be banned being the news to- Kravitz apologizing (sort of), the NY times running an article saying science shows nothing happenned, and Rice being outed as a cheater nationally.

All wins, and all stuff I heard from the fans before the local media, and then national media picked it up. We are driving some of the narrative.

But those are true, some of the biggest wins may or may not be true:

Esiason on national TV and radio saying Pagano and Harbaugh started this from jealousy. Not a lick of proof, but now it's heard repeatedly and it's a rumor I heard days before it ever hit the air. I doubt Esiason is the inventor, he heard it from someone who heard it and it sounded plausible.

Last night on a national broadcast on letterman the theory was put forth by letterman that the Colts deflated a ball. That whole narrative has been driven by fans right up until it was uttered on national television. Now it's part of the national narrative. People legitimately believe it's possible the Colts set the Patriots up, and Harbaugh was in on it, instead of only believing the Patriots did it. There's no proof either the Colts or Patriots did anything but we have shifted the narrative with nothing but smoke and mirrors.

Some people hate Wikipedia, doesn't matter. People read Wikipedia. If someone wants to know what Spygate or Deflategate is they start on Wikipedia. They may not believe it all, but that's where the narrative starts.

NYCPatsFan said:

What I still don't get is accepting such a high punishment for camera-gate.

The highest fines possible to both the team and BB made it certain to every non-Pats fan that such a harsh punishment wouldn't have been necessary if the issue was not that big a deal.\

I am one of those who was pleading for some kind of a fight against that fine and allegations. In fact, a few of us in this forum tried to design something (FRAME or something like that) but it did not take any traction.

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Yeah, they royally ****ed that up. I think you have to look at how unique the media attention was over an event that was not unique. Teams have lost picks for salary cap violations, practice violations and much more. Kraft and BB both were around for that, yet those things never blew up despite some being more egregious.

I don't think they grasped the Twitter age (still not sure they do), and that this would NEVER just drift off and be forgotten in this era. Otherwise maybe they would have fought it. I think they figured the fastest route out of the spotlight was to say nothing and accept a punishment rather than spend a year fighting with more stories covering every development. It was a monumental miscalculation, and I'd like to think they wouldn't do it again.

But I also think they're just not good at fighting, at least they did something this time I suppose. But it still took them several days to respond, a lifetime nowadays. In the 80's the next article comes out in the weekly column after they've responded. Today, the whole "scandal" had been decided with 12,000 articles before they even had a response. Way too slow.

Bobsyouruncle said:

Esiason on national TV and radio saying Pagano and Harbaugh started this from jealousy. Not a lick of proof, but now it's heard repeatedly and it's a rumor I heard days before it ever hit the air. I doubt Esiason is the inventor, he heard it from someone who heard it and it sounded plausible.

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Well, there's still the origin problem. According to Troy Vincent, Ryan Grigson is the one who dropped the dime on the Patriots by reporting the problem to the NFL.

The problem is, how did he "know" to do that? It's an incredibly random accusation to make de novo.

For the first time I can ever remember since Spygate there is at least a segment, albeit a small one, of the population outside of NE which seems at least willing to consider the possibility that the Pats were set up. Some in the Colts' fan base seem outraged that their team is being falsely accused. Well, tough ****. I'm glad someone else is getting a taste of what that's like for a change.

I say we destroy half the teams in the league
Here's how...
Let's assume that the league does hand out this dumb ass fine despite no evidence.
Were I Kraft, I'd insist that the league audit balls at halftime for every game.
This league is so dumb that all would go well early in the season. Lulled into complacency. Heh!
Suddenly in December, balls in games the North are going way out of spec, dropping in psi all over the place. Teams "cheating" and being fined left & right. Green Bay's season suspended for repeat violations in blatant disregard of Goodell's edict!
Teams "cheating" and being fined left & right.
Hilarity ensues.
Major clown show.

NYCPatsFan said:

What I still don't get is accepting such a high punishment for camera-gate.

The highest fines possible to both the team and BB made it certain to every non-Pats fan that such a harsh punishment wouldn't have been necessary if the issue was not that big a deal.\

I am one of those who was pleading for some kind of a fight against that fine and allegations. In fact, a few of us in this forum tried to design something (FRAME or something like that) but it did not take any traction.

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My overly homeristic/ascribing too much nobility theory for why they accepted the punishment:

(1) According the league's interpretation of the by-laws/game manual/rules, the Patriots were in the wrong.

(2) If a team disputes a ruling by the league, rightly or wrongly, both parties will look bad. Consider what happened with the Saints bounty case. The players didn't quietly accept their punishment, which led to Tagliabue getting involved and the punishments being reduced. That also opened the door to question the league's handling of the whole case and doubts about whether the league actually had enough evidence to hand down their discipline. When the Patriots accepted their penalty without a public dispute, it made Goodell and the league look strong, like they were going to clean up bad behavior by players, coaches, and teams.

I'm not saying that was the right approach and, as we've seen since 2007, most of the high profile cases haven't been handled smoothly by the league.

The other line of thinking that bothers me about the Patriots situation and others is that the discipline will vary not just by the offense, but by how good the team involved is. The Patriots were either losing a 1st or 2nd round pick in 2008 (plus the monetary fines), depending on if they made the playoffs. If they were a bad team, they would have only lost a 2nd round pick. Compare that to the Broncos actually taping another team's practice, losing no draft picks and paying $50K fines for the team and head coach. The Broncos were 4-12 that year. The Falcons have won 10 games over the last 2 years, so their pumping in crowd noise (which would actually impact the action on the field) will probably be minimized. Their 3 year playoff run will be overlooked and their recent ineptitude will most likely cause them to avoid a harsh punishment.

It's almost like the message is, if you're a bad team, break whatever rules you want. No one will believe it helped you and your penalty will be less than if you were a playoff team.

The thing for me that really ticks me off is the sequence of events how all this played out in the game. The ball gets intercepted with 9 minutes left in the 2nd and given to the equipment manager. He in turn squeezes the ball and feels something funny and brings it to who? Does he bring it to the umpire? Coach? GM? And then they report it to the refs who grab all the balls and take PSI readings. All this before the half ends and have the balls almost ready for 2nd half.
They do this without informing the Pats, but they do inform someone they are investigating and they in turn have enough time to tell Kravitz who then has enough time to check (not really) the story and post it online. All this before the Pats front office have a clue anything is going on. And then walk smack into a blossoming story with no warning whatsoever. Goodell meanwhile is dining at the Kraft's and even though someone tells Kravitz about the story. Goodell can't even mention it to Mr. Kraft. Is this a trap or didn't he know either? All too crazy for my blood. Considering it takes them a few months to investigate this BS.

Tunescribe said:

Bob Kraft and BB dropped the ball on cameraplacementgate seven years ago by staying mum and allowing public (hater) perception to overtake reality. They should have called press conference(s) to address it then, just like they did with the deflategate nonsense. Any credible book on the subject would REQUIRE candid interviews with BB, Kraft, Goodell, Mangini, Walsh, Tomase and the Herald's then-managing editor -- plus others for context, such as Tagliabue, Bill Cowher, Jimmy Johnson, Marshall Faulk, Kurt Warner, etc. Never going to happen, as much as I'd love to see it.

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Agreed.

My guess is Goodell convinced Kraft that for "the good of the game" we should let gullible fans believe that signal filming was against the rules. Belichick wen't along with Kraft - and in fairness Belichick was getting cute with his interpretation of the phrase "for the purposes of that game" or words to that effect and should have known that making Goodell look like a fool was bound to have some repercussions

I think Kraft said "enough is enough" with this latest fabricated scandal

But you already heard Belihcick mention the "80,000 fans" that plays are being called in front of at his recent press conference

If he's pushed a bit more he may continue to push back on Spygate - and when he retires you can bet there's going to be a best seller book where Belichick tells us what he really thinks of Goodell's handling of Spygate

Patstopia said:

The thing for me that really ticks me off is the sequence of events how all this played out in the game. The ball gets intercepted with 9 minutes left in the 2nd and given to the equipment manager. He in turn squeezes the ball and feels something funny and brings it to who? Does he bring it to the umpire? Coach? GM? And then they report it to the refs who grab all the balls and take PSI readings. All this before the half ends and have the balls almost ready for 2nd half.
They do this without informing the Pats, but they do inform someone they are investigating and they in turn have enough time to tell Kravitz who then has enough time to check (not really) the story and post it online. All this before the Pats front office have a clue anything is going on. And then walk smack into a blossoming story with no warning whatsoever. Goodell meanwhile is dining at the Kraft's and even though someone tells Kravitz about the story. Goodell can't even mention it to Mr. Kraft. Is this a trap or didn't he know either? All too crazy for my blood. Considering it takes them a few months to investigate this BS.

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When you say it like that it seems a lot stranger than any other recap I have heard. This is a very helpful way of turning it back on to the NFL and the Colts. I also think it is an easier take to explain than the physics courses that everyone is trying to educate folks with. I think the average fan can grasp this sequence of events that you have laid out and at least see that something weird happened. Thanks.

Deus Irae said:

It's too late to fight back with the truth. Just take a look at the walk through allegations.

Truth: Paper recanted and apologized, writer disgraced, team exonerated by league


Result: People don't care, say Patriots did it anyway, claim Rodger/NFL was protecting Patriots.

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C'mon DI, you have to have more fight in you than that. If there is one thing we know about this age of instant communication and social media, is that individuals actually CAN have more of an impact on perceived reality.....and a group of organized and committed people can have even more.

You state the case well, yet you seem too cynical to try and do anything about it. Ice is right. Deflategate is actually an opportunity to start to change the narrative. The story of the innocent party, unjustly accused is a powerful redemptive story. Then when you start to reveal the more complex story of "cameraplacementgate", people will be more willing to take the time to listen and accept that their long held opinions could be wrong.

Sure there will always be the hard core haters who don't really care about the truth, but as the majority comes to terms with it, their voices will become more shrill, irritating and less believable. More importantly the Pats reputation will improve across the nation and the annoyance of dealing with these issues, as Pats fans, will start to ebb.

But this isn't going to happen overnight, and it won't occur without some hard work determination and organization. It's easy to sit back and cynically despair that nothing can be done, that the "Game has been lost", and wail against the wind. So DI, you have a choice. You can smugly mock those of us who you perceive as shoveling sh!t against the tide, or you can join us and change the course of reality. I don't think we should have to wait for generations for the truth to come out, how about you?

patfanken said:

C'mon DI, you have to have more fight in you than that. If there is one thing we know about this age of instant communication and social media, is that individuals actually CAN have more of an impact on perceived reality.....and a group of organized and committed people can have even more.

You state the case well, yet you seem too cynical to try and do anything about it. Ice is right. Deflategate is actually an opportunity to start to change the narrative. The story of the innocent party, unjustly accused is a powerful redemptive story. Then when you start to reveal the more complex story of "cameraplacementgate", people will be more willing to take the time to listen and accept that their long held opinions could be wrong.

Sure there will always be the hard core haters who don't really care about the truth, but as the majority comes to terms with it, their voices will become more shrill, irritating and less believable. More importantly the Pats reputation will improve across the nation and the annoyance of dealing with these issues, as Pats fans, will start to ebb.

But this isn't going to happen overnight, and it won't occur without some hard work determination and organization. It's easy to sit back and cynically despair that nothing can be done, that the "Game has been lost", and wail against the wind. So DI, you have a choice. You can smugly mock those of us who you perceive as shoveling sh!t against the tide, or you can join us and change the course of reality. I don't think we should have to wait for generations for the truth to come out, how about you?

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I don't mean people shouldn't try, if that's what they want to do. Even small victories can make it worthwhile for an individual.

But you're not going to get most people to change their minds about something that they already wanted to believe. We've been seeing this for 7 years on this subject.

Prove A wrong, they jump to B
Prove B wrong, they jump to C
Prove C wrong, they jump back to A

And, as far as "choice" goes, you can kiss off with the nonsense about smugly mocking. I was fighting this from the beginning, while most of you were either doing nothing or attacking me for my position. Ask PatsFanInVa about it.

Hell, here's me talking about it back in 2008:

'Interpretation of the rules'.... from the mouth of Goodell.


Now, all those who gave us 'defenders' on this subject a ration of grief, take it up with Goodell. This ass-clown of an Ommissioner punished the team for things that happened before he even took power.

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http://www.patsfans.com/new-england...eeting-with-goodell.82554/page-16#post-890444

That whole thread's worth a read, though, to see how divided Patriots fanse were even at that point..

Here's another one, from September 2007 (Link to page 1, quote from page 2):

It would be great if some of the Patriots fans who bought into the nonsense would stop preaching and start actually thinking. This wasn't the equivalent of sneaking into to a basketball game with no ticket. Even assuming the worst, this was nothing more than moving from one seat to another in order to get a better view when there were open seats available.

This was a non-story blown way out of proportion because of the actions of the same assclown who's now regulating where cheerleaders can warm up. I find it vexing that people can't realize how over-the-top this guy has gone.

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http://www.patsfans.com/new-england-patriots/messageboard/threads/jimmy-johnson-on-wfan.62502/

Again, reading the whole thing shows the need to defend even against other ardent Patriots fans, and shows some of us doing so from the start.

One last link on this, starting at the first page:

http://www.patsfans.com/new-england-patriots/messageboard/threads/an-interesting-new-thought.77864/

One thing I'm tired of is hearing people claim that people cannot be convinced.

Two different lawyers could take the same case, with the same facts, and one could fail, and one could succeed. It's all in how the argument is presented. I watch Patriot fans rather pitifully try to defend our team all the time, and I see why they fail. They don't attack. They plead, they explain, they beg people to see things reasonably. They allow themselves to be put on the defensive and the moment they do the whole thing just becomes hopeless. You can't be defensive when you're out numbered by a mob.

You have to lash out and attack. You have to be precise, you have to be aggressive, and you have to do it with conviction.

Nobody is going to be persuaded by someone who sounds like they're doing damage-control.

Use Jimmy Johnson to hammer the point that the Patriots video taping signals was not unique to the New England. Call people on their blatant hypocrisy in never attributing an asterisk to the Cowboys dynasty while feigning such disapproval over the Patriots. Why are they so passionate over Crygate but could care less about Dallas? Already you have them exposed as agenda driven frauds, and you've only just begun.

Call out the absurdity of believing NFC Championships fell victim to a `cameraman on the sidelines.`

Make THEM defend their own stupid arguments. Don't let them get away with tarnishing the team with the mindless simplicity of one word assaults like "cheater" or "Spygate." If they have an argument, make them MAKE it. Otherwise, you're just arguing against emotional reactions, which is an argument you'll never win.

Do they believe Belichick was calling rock, scissor, paper on the sidelines with a constant feed of information giving him insights into every play the opposition was about to call? That's stupid.

Most don't realize that that is what they're arguing until you point it out to them. Make them know what they're arguing, then make them understand how utterly ****ing stupid it is. Do this and watch how fast the perceived rightness of their position falls to pieces and crumbles into dust.

Finally, identify early who you're arguing with. If you're arguing with an idiotic hater just seething with jealousy, let them know what they are, and make everyone else see it. When people aren't interested in truth, just fight fire with fire, and go straight to ridicule. Break Spygate down into a media perpetrated conspiracy theory and then make everyone else see what a pathetic moron they are for believing it.

Spybabies generally fall into three different categories: They're wildly misinformed, impressionable (morons or lazy), or just jealous, hate-driven rivals.

Not exactly a tall order IMO.

PATS16N0 said:

One thing I'm tired of is hearing people claim that people cannot be convinced.

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I've mentioned this before, but it's worth mentioning again.

There is a conspiracy mindset that makes people prone to believing conspiracy theories exist, even when they don't/can't make sense.

My favorite example is a survey that found that people who believe that Osama bin Laden is still alive today are more likely (compared to people who believe he's dead) to believe that he was already dead before the raid on his compound.

Think about that for a second. You might convince a lot of people, but good luck with those folks.

patfanken said:

We were guilty of arrogance and hubris, NOT cheating.

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Love this line, Ken.

Deus Irae said:

I don't mean people shouldn't try, if that's what they want to do. Even small victories can make it worthwhile for an individual.

But you're not going to get most people to change their minds about something that they already wanted to believe. We've been seeing this for 7 years on this subject.

Prove A wrong, they jump to B
Prove B wrong, they jump to C
Prove C wrong, they jump back to A

And, as far as "choice" goes, you can kiss off with the nonsense about smugly mocking. I was fighting this from the beginning, while most of you were either doing nothing or attacking me for my position. Ask PatsFanInVa about it.

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Agreed and we're not just talking "Spygate" here. The over emotional, confirmation bias, logic-less mob has been operating as far back as the villagers storming Dr. Frankenstein's castle.
This failure of the human condition isn't going to be changed because of a football team's fans. I say that with no disrespect to anyone putting up the good fight to set the record straight (I'm behind you 100%), I'm just saying anyone attempting it has a colossally titanic mountain to overcome due to the massive size of the mob and their well engrained dysfunction.

Here's a thread where we talk about how Mike Reiss was getting things wrong. Note that we didn't put him on an enemies list. Here's what we were discussing:

A: Jack, taping signals of opposing coaches, regardless of location, is against the rules. The NFL clarified that in the September of 2006 memo from Ray Anderson, although from a technical standpoint, the league should probably now be writing that into the Constitution & Bylaws.

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http://www.patsfans.com/new-england-patriots/messageboard/threads/mike-reiss-q-a-on-taping.82672/

Reporters screw up. It happens. It's why the "Kill Glazer!" type of sentiment is stupid.

Ahhh.... memories. Doing searches for this pulled up the thread on Crable:

The kid doesn't have the pins to hold up against the running game, in all likelihood. He's got basketball calves.

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You may well be right. On the other hand, my forearms are bigger than Crable's calves. I'm a big guy, but that's still not what you want to see from a 3-4 OLB.

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http://www.patsfans.com/new-england...threads/crable-as-pass-rush-specialist.88510/

I wish I'd been wrong on that.

http://boston.cbslocal.com/2015/02/...spygate-accusations-very-differently-in-2006/