Schefter: Has Heard Speculation Colts might have deflated the footballs

I still can't believe Fifi Rice was cheating his entire career. I'll bet he was betting on games with Pete Rose too, after all he is a known felon.........

I have always believed that the best way to find out the truth about any great athlete is to ask someone who lost to them repeatedly in big games. Who would know better or be less biased ?

Ivan said:

I have always believed that the best way to find out the truth about any great athlete is to ask someone who lost to them repeatedly in big games. Who would know better or be less biased ?

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Too bad there aren't many former Pats opponents in that position.

AndyJohnson said:

That explains a lot

I think that Jerry Rice or other former players would not share your opinion, that they are no notihngs which was my point.

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So what? So Rice doesn't realize he's an idiot? OK. Does that prevent me from calling him one?

80% might be hyperbole on both our part. The poll you are probably attempting to cite was the SportsNation which had it closer to 50-50. And yes, I think I can unequivocally say I assume 50% of the people on ESPN.com at any moment are not very smart.

You are giving respect to people who don't deserve it. It's truly an embarrassment for our country that the average person never even considered the pressure-temperature relation and failed to face the investigation with skepticism. PV = nRT is actually intuitive, and its something we experience on a daily basis with cars or bikes or a basketball sitting in our trunk or whatever.

It didn't help that the pop-scientists came out to prove why they are just pop-scientists, making rookie mistakes in their calculations. Sure, Bill Nye & NdT (the latter of which who is actually a scientist, the former who is not) might've been part of the reason people were so stupid on this. But even that is a failure of society as the whole. The people we regard as scientific experts in this country are not at all, and our scientific knowledge is so pathetic that even the most intuitive & common sense things are foreign to us.

BradyManny said:

So what? So Rice doesn't realize he's an idiot? OK. Does that prevent me from calling him one?

80% might be hyperbole on both our part. The poll you are probably attempting to cite was the SportsNation which had it closer to 50-50. And yes, I think I can unequivocally say I assume 50% of the people on ESPN.com at any moment are not very smart.

You are giving respect to people who don't deserve it. It's truly an embarrassment for our country that the average person never even considered the pressure-temperature relation and failed to face the investigation with skepticism. PV = nRT is actually intuitive, and its something we experience on a daily basis with cars or bikes or a basketball sitting in our trunk or whatever.

It didn't help that the pop-scientists came out to prove why they are just pop-scientists, making rookie mistakes in their calculations. Sure, Bill Nye & NdT (the latter of which who is actually a scientist, the former who is not) might've been part of the reason people were so stupid on this. But even that is a failure of society as the whole. The people we regard as scientific experts in this country are not at all, and our scientific knowledge is so pathetic that even the most intuitive & common sense things are foreign to us.

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I'm not giving respect to anyone.
I am saying that when the NFL leaks an incorrect story that the Patriots are being investigated for cheating because 11 of their 12 footballs were underinflated that people, such as ex-players, will conclude they cheated.
Patriots fans will have an interest in digger deeper into the story, others will not. That does not make them idiots, it makes them people who trust what is reported. I am sure we could dig through this forum and find hundreds of times you based a conclusion on a report. Does that make you a moron too? Of course not.

AndyJohnson said:

I'm not giving respect to anyone.
I am saying that when the NFL leaks an incorrect story that the Patriots are being investigated for cheating because 11 of their 12 footballs were underinflated that people, such as ex-players, will conclude they cheated.
Patriots fans will have an interest in digger deeper into the story, others will not. That does not make them idiots, it makes them people who trust what is reported. I am sure we could dig through this forum and find hundreds of times you based a conclusion on a report. Does that make you a moron too? Of course not.

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You are missing the point - there is no need to "dig deeper" into this story as you keep saying. A person's first instinct should be to at least consider the possibility of deflation caused by nature. Pressure-temperature relation is not complicated. Actually doing the math is digging deeper - but the idea that colder air causes pressure to read as decreased should be intuitive and ingrained.

BradyManny said:

You are missing the point - there is no need to "dig deeper" into this story as you keep saying. A person's first instinct should be to at least consider the possibility of deflation caused by nature. Pressure-temperature relation is not complicated. Actually doing the math is digging deeper - but the idea that colder air causes pressure to read as decreased should be intuitive and ingrained.

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I totally and completely disagree. The average, mostly disinterested person, is not going to look outside the box. Mort reported that 11 of 12 balls were deflated 2 psi. The typical person will accept that this is correct, because its Morts job to report it. At that time the consensus that was being reported was that the Patriots manipulated the balls. The science argument came later.
The first instinct, especially with the Patriots when something like that comes out is to assume they cheated. Where have you been if you don't know that. Even AFTER BB showed the science and did experiments many, many people dismissed it.
I'm not discussing intellect, or fairness, I'm discussing reality.

AndyJohnson said:

I am saying that when the NFL leaks an incorrect story that the Patriots are being investigated for cheating because 11 of their 12 footballs were underinflated that people, such as ex-players, will conclude they cheated.

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I think the key word in this statement is Patriots, I think most Pats fans (myself included) are sick of the double standard that exists. The Jets are accused of tampering with Revis and not many people are making a big deal about it, which in my opinion has a way bigger influence on the sport than a loss of psi in a football. Meanwhile, the world is over-analyzing and judging this Deflategate issue to death. So, maybe if more folks embarrass people like Rice through twitter and other venues, others will back off before they voice such strong opinions about the Pats.

I don't know if many folks have read the "Kids and Dedlategate" thread, but that thread really its home for me, it is so sad*. I can't even imagine how awful it would have felt as a 9 year old boy back in 1975 if someone had made Fred Lynn (my favorite player ever) hold a press conference and answer "allegations" about using a shaved or corked bat before the World Series. Also, imagine if Ted Williams (Jerry Rice) and Sandy Koufax (Joe Montana) were going on TV responding to these "allegations" and giving them more credence. Ouch, it hurts just thinking about it. For me sports is a great escape from the real world, but for some kids it is so much more and it sucks that they can't just enjoy this amazing team that this organization has assembled, without having to defend them all the time.

* = except for Bruins29, he says some funny stuff.

AndyJohnson said:

I totally and completely disagree. The average, mostly disinterested person, is not going to look outside the box. Mort reported that 11 of 12 balls were deflated 2 psi. The typical person will accept that this is correct, because its Morts job to report it. At that time the consensus that was being reported was that the Patriots manipulated the balls. The science argument came later.
The first instinct, especially with the Patriots when something like that comes out is to assume they cheated. Where have you been if you don't know that. Even AFTER BB showed the science and did experiments many, many people dismissed it.
I'm not discussing intellect, or fairness, I'm discussing reality.

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Clearly, you are right - because this is what transpired.

However, again, I think you are too lenient on this reaction. You cite the science argument. It's not even about science. The science argument is the detailed calculations whether theoretical (i.e., @Palm Beach Pats Fan or experimental like HeadSmart). There should've been a common sense reaction of skepticism to the idea that the "deflation" must have been man-made. We know things read as deflated when they get colder. Whether people hate the Pats or not, the thought should've crossed their collective minds.

Obviously, though - it didn't, like you say.

Calhoun44 said:

I think the key word in this statement is Patriots, I think most Pats fans (myself included) are sick of the double standard that exists. The Jets are accused of tampering with Revis and not many people are making a big deal about it, which in my opinion has a way bigger influence on the sport than a loss of psi in a football. Meanwhile, the world is over-analyzing and judging this Deflategate issue to death. So, maybe if more folks embarrass people like Rice through twitter and other venues, others will back off before they voice such strong opinions about the Pats.

I don't know if many folks have read the "Kids and Dedlategate" thread, but that thread really its home for me, it is so sad*. I can't even imagine how awful it would have felt as a 9 year old boy back in 1975 if someone had made Fred Lynn (my favorite player ever) hold a press conference and answer "allegations" about using a shaved or corked bat before the World Series. Also, imagine if Ted Williams (Jerry Rice) and Sandy Koufax (Joe Montana) were going on TV responding to these "allegations" and giving them more credence. Ouch, it hurts just thinking about it. For me sports is a great escape from the real world, but for some kids it is so much more and it sucks that they can't just enjoy this amazing team that this organization has assembled, without having to defend them all the time.

* = except for Bruins29, he says some funny stuff.

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Agreed, and thats my point.
Who cares about Jerry Rice. He is the voice of the average Joe in this case. What he said and why he said it is consistent with the general public.
The REAL problem is that the NFL allowed it to happen by leaking bs information and not refuting the incorrect information that it was called the source of.
The league allowed its best franchise to be meaninglessly dragged through the mud, its best player and best HC to have their integrity assaulted and sat back quietly doing nothing.
Of course Jerry Rice called us cheaters because the NFL supported us being framed as cheaters in the court of public opinion.

BradyManny said:

Clearly, you are right - because this is what transpired.

However, again, I think you are too lenient on this reaction. You cite the science argument. It's not even about science. The science argument is the detailed calculations whether theoretical (i.e., @Palm Beach Pats Fan or experimental like HeadSmart). There should've been a common sense reaction of skepticism to the idea that the "deflation" must have been man-made. We know things read as deflated when they get colder. Whether people hate the Pats or not, the thought should've crossed their collective minds.

Obviously, though - it didn't, like you say.

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I think the big difference here is as a Pats fan you were open minded and ready to consider explanations.
Non Pats fans simply said, There go the Patriots cheating again, and put no further thought into it because they have been conditioned to do so by the NFL and people like Marshal Faulk and Kurt Warner.

The problem is that Jerry Rice should know better than to comment on "allegations". Imagine if BB or Brady were asked this question about something the Jets did. If you can imagine their response, I think you then can understand why people are calling Rice a "weasel".

AndyJohnson said:

I think the big difference here is as a Pats fan you were open minded and ready to consider explanations.
Non Pats fans simply said, There go the Patriots cheating again, and put no further thought into it because they have been conditioned to do so by the NFL and people like Marshal Faulk and Kurt Warner.

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Fair enough - no argument here on that conclusion.

AndyJohnson said:

I totally and completely disagree. The average, mostly disinterested person, is not going to look outside the box. Mort reported that 11 of 12 balls were deflated 2 psi. The typical person will accept that this is correct, because its Morts job to report it. At that time the consensus that was being reported was that the Patriots manipulated the balls. The science argument came later.
The first instinct, especially with the Patriots when something like that comes out is to assume they cheated. Where have you been if you don't know that. Even AFTER BB showed the science and did experiments many, many people dismissed it.
I'm not discussing intellect, or fairness, I'm discussing reality.

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Television for morons, arguments for morons, morons for morons.

There's an alarming percentage of morons in this country, and their first instinct isn't to assume the Patriots cheated; it's to assume whatever it is their televisions told them to assume. You act like some deeper thought process goes into it in our Idiocracy when it's really just as simple as that.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_fallacies

Choose your fallacy. As long as it's coming from television it'll work wonders, even if it's coming from a miscreant like Mark Brunnel. I'll say again: A moron with an illogical argument will be seen as an expert making good points as long as he's doing it on television.

PATS16N0 said:

Television for morons, arguments for morons, morons for morons.

There's an alarming percentage of morons in this country, and their first instinct isn't to assume the Patriots cheated; it's to assume whatever it is their televisions told them to assume. You act like some deeper thought process goes into it in our Idiocracy when it's really just as simple as that.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_fallacies

Choose your fallacy. As long as it's coming from television it'll work wonders, even if it's coming from a miscreant like Mark Brunnel. I'll say again: A moron with an illogical argument will be seen as an expert making good points as long as he's doing it on television.

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OK, so I will mark your opinion down as everyone except you is stupid.

Pats fans are defending their team so they are going to dig deeper.

With the non-Pats fans, media, and haters, they are not only not motivated to dig deeper, they actually like the cheater narrative. It gives them an out so that they can convince themselves that this great dynasty that has been in the hunt, seemingly forever, really isn't as great as they appear to be. It also makes them feel better about their own team's failures.

"We would be winners too, it's just that with the Pats' cheating, we never stood a fair chance."

It's comfort food for the losers.

Calhoun44 said:

The problem is that Jerry Rice should know better than to comment on "allegations". Imagine if BB or Brady were asked this question about something the Jets did. If you can imagine their response, I think you then can understand why people are calling Rice a "weasel".

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Once again.

Rice commenting as he did on Deflategate was NOT weaselish. He may be wrong on that, and using yet unproven innuendo to paint someone with a broad brush is wrong, but it does not make him a "weasel".

Rice tweeting his semi apology for being hypocritical at Midnight/PST on a Friday night and claiming he somehow just now did some new research and that he has suddenly come to the realization that stickum use was illegal YEARS AFTER he publicly said so is the very definition of a human version of a "weasel".

That is all.

Damn, I knew I should have used the word "moron" there...this thread is hard to follow.

AndyJohnson said:

Agreed, and thats my point.
Who cares about Jerry Rice. He is the voice of the average Joe in this case. What he said and why he said it is consistent with the general public.
The REAL problem is that the NFL allowed it to happen by leaking bs information and not refuting the incorrect information that it was called the source of.
The league allowed its best franchise to be meaninglessly dragged through the mud, its best player and best HC to have their integrity assaulted and sat back quietly doing nothing.
Of course Jerry Rice called us cheaters because the NFL supported us being framed as cheaters in the court of public opinion.

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I don't know. If I'm a person of influence and I am going to call out the integrity of a colleague I think its makes sense to do more than a cursory review of the facts before doing so. If I didn't then shame one me and in this case shame on Rice. He deserves criticism.

BSR said:

I don't know. If I'm a person of influence and I am going to call out the integrity of a colleague I think its makes sense to do more than a cursory review of the facts before doing so. If I didn't then shame one me and in this case shame on Rice. He deserves criticism.

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I don't know, I think he wasn't doing it from a position of authority or influence, he just sent a tweet.
Again, not saying Rice did nothing deserving of criticism, but I can't really blame him for relying on NFL reporters being correct, and more importantly, there is a much more deserving target for criticism and anger.