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Schefter's Latest on Colts Did It Rumors


Ted Wells and crew apparently took 14 weeks to investigate bullying in Miami. Who the heck knows when this one will end.
 
Ted Wells and crew apparently took 14 weeks to investigate bullying in Miami. Who the heck knows when this one will end.

Columbia scientists are probably pretty busy but they could take care of this in one day. Wells is probably consulting with local Wicans to see if Belichick used witchcraft to deflate the balls. Could take a while.
 
Just wondering out loud...I'm one of those fans that does NOT want this just swept under the rug or an "inconclusive" verdict if the league can't find any wrongdoing by the Patriots...can Kraft submit a counter complaint against the Colts? Did the Colts tamper with our football? Why or how the Colts balls defy all laws of physics and didn't loose pressure (I don't believe they didn't, I believe they dropped but stayed within the range, but to a lot of media and non Pats fans the "didn't drop at all" story keeps rolling)? Maybe this could sped things up here. I do not want this to just fade out of the media with the only lingering taste to everyone outside of NE thinking we cheated.
 
Peter King

The recent statement that "one ball was 2 psi under, & the others were just a tick under" makes absolutely zero sense. ALL balls were down about 1.3 psi below the pressure to which they were set. We KNOW that all the Patriots' balls were set to 12.5 psi, therefore they ALL were reading around 11.2 psi. Which is NOT "just a tick under".

We don't actually know this.

That drop you cite assumes a certain drop in temperature. Without knowing the exact details of how the Patriots prep the balls, we don't know what the initial temperature of the balls was. We also don't know how long it takes for the balls to reach thermal equilibrium with the ambient air. For all we know, it might take 12 hours.

All the speculation that's happened here is to explain what might have happened. Physics can explain a drop of ~1 PSI, but we don't know that it needs to.

In other words: it is possible that, as Rapoport reported, most of the balls were just under the limit.
 
No way it takes 12 hours footballs to reach ambient temperature. Experiments have been done it's more in the order of one hour at most
 
Physics can explain a drop of ~1 PSI, but we don't know that it needs to.

As I said elsewhere, there are a lot of reasons why the balls would be as Rapoport reported them. Which is a frightening thought, I literally can't think of a man who has been wrong more consistently, with only good intentions. (A lot of reporters are wrong often in part thanks to being total trolls, i.e. Ron Borges...)

But that said, you have two different factors affecting the pressure. You have temperature, and you have wetness (leading to change in volume). Whether the balls were in the bag or in play would affect how much it was affected by both of those things.
 
Hey ct.
I disagree that there are a bunch of unknowns.
I disagree because I ran some tests.

We don't actually know this.

That drop you cite assumes a certain drop in temperature. Without knowing the exact details of how the Patriots prep the balls, we don't know what the initial temperature of the balls was.

I disagree. I believe that there is sufficient information available to make valid ESTIMATES of the actual conditions. And the rest of the unknowns can be covered with a reasonable sensitivity analysis.

For example, I believe that the following assumptions are justifiable:
1. Room temp in locker room: 71 - 76°F.
2. Internal air temp of footballs in locker room: 71 - 80°F
3. Pressure in balls in locker room: 12.4 - 12.6 psig ("reasonably accurate pressure gauge")
4. Dry bulb temp for last 15 minutes before half time: 48 - 51°F
5. Rain temp: 46 - 50°F

Using best case & worst case THEORETICAL calculations yield:
10.7 psig < P2 < 11.6 psig

Using the same best & worst case temps, along with the experimentally determined pressure lapse rate (0.06 ± 0.02 psi/°F) yields:
10.3 psig < P2 < 11.4 psig



We also don't know how long it takes for the balls to reach thermal equilibrium with the ambient air. For all we know, it might take 12 hours.

Nope, I do know.
It was a component of the experiment I ran.

In mine, I exposed 3 official game balls 6to cold water (@ 48°F), then cold air (@ 50°F) for 70 minutes. I ran 3 duty cycles of water/air, just to look for a difference.

These cycles were intended to be a "reasonable simulation" of a ball's typical use. One play used, dried off,

i) 1 minute immersion in cold water, dry off with a towel, 9 minutes cold air. (7 cycles = 70 minutes)
ii) 1 minutes immersion, dry off, 4 minutes cold air. (14 cycles = 70 minutes)
iii) 7 minutes immersion, dry off, 3 minutes room temp (71°F) (7 cycles = 70 minutes)

The pressure drop over the course of the testing reached the same steady state level, which tells me that even the 1 minute water/9 minutes cold air had sufficient heat transfer to reach the steady state cold value (represented by the 7 minute immersion/3 minute room temp air).

The dousing exposure to cold rain & water guarantees a HIGH heat transfer between the balls & the cold water/air when the balls were cooling off.

Drying the balls off & sitting them in a warm room (with cold water soaked leather) and only convection as the heat transfer mechanism guarantees a LOW heat transfer when the balls were warming up.

A full 3 hours after concluding my tests, drying the balls off & sitting at room temp, the pressure in the balls was STILL in the low 11 psi range.

All the speculation that's happened here is to explain what might have happened. Physics can explain a drop of ~1 PSI, but we don't know that it needs to.

Theoretical physics can explain a drop of about 1.3 psi between 75°F & 49°F.
Experimental physics (at least in my tests) suggests a drop of 1.5 psi between those same temps.


In other words: it is possible that, as Rapoport reported, most of the balls were just under the limit.

I missed your explanation as to how this is possible.
The ONLY way that I see this to be possible is for someone to have been inflating the balls while they were cold.

Can you point me to where you described your explanations?
__

In conclusion, having run the experiments, I am completely comfortable stating that I consider the issue settled within the likely extremes of initial & final values for temp & pressure.
 
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We don't actually know this.

That drop you cite assumes a certain drop in temperature. Without knowing the exact details of how the Patriots prep the balls, we don't know what the initial temperature of the balls was. We also don't know how long it takes for the balls to reach thermal equilibrium with the ambient air. For all we know, it might take 12 hours.

All the speculation that's happened here is to explain what might have happened. Physics can explain a drop of ~1 PSI, but we don't know that it needs to.

In other words: it is possible that, as Rapoport reported, most of the balls were just under the limit.

I have a strong suspicious that no football was 2 PSI under. I believe a football was nearly 2 PSI under 13.0, which is the average for a football under the rules. I heard something about this early in the report but can't remember exactly where.

It will be funny if the "2 PSI" claim is actually a ball with 11.3 PSI, which is actually just 1.2 PSI under the minimum that the Patriots likely inflated their balls at. It will be funny but certainly not surprising at all if that's the case.
 
Can you point me to where you described your explanations?
__

In conclusion, having run the experiments, I am completely comfortable stating that I consider the issue settled within the likely extremes of initial & final values for temp & pressure.

My point is simply this: you're trying to explain something that may not have happened.

Right now, all we're doing is speculating.

We don't know what temperature the balls were at the start of the game. We don't know their initial pressure. We don't know their final pressures, either.

I'm not saying you're definitely wrong, merely that we don't have enough information to be certain that's what happened.
 
Belichick joked that Letterman should be a witness when the Patriots are interviewed next month. Next Month? Does that mean they aren't even talking to him until March? If so, set your calendars until July- that is probably when the report gets released.

Edit: I wouldn't be surprised if they try to release the report close to the draft. That way, the imbeciles at the league office can quickly redirect the national dialogue.
 
Hey ct.
I disagree that there are a bunch of unknowns.
I disagree because I ran some tests.



I disagree. I believe that there is sufficient information available to make valid ESTIMATES of the actual conditions. And the rest of the unknowns can be covered with a reasonable sensitivity analysis.

For example, I believe that the following assumptions are justifiable:
1. Room temp in locker room: 71 - 76°F.
2. Internal air temp of footballs in locker room: 71 - 80°F
3. Pressure in balls in locker room: 12.4 - 12.6 psig ("reasonably accurate pressure gauge")
4. Dry bulb temp for last 15 minutes before half time: 48 - 51°F
5. Rain temp: 46 - 50°F

Using best case & worst case THEORETICAL calculations yield:
10.7 psig < P2 < 11.6 psig

Using the same best & worst case temps, along with the experimentally determined pressure lapse rate (0.06 ± 0.02 psi/°F) yields:
10.3 psig < P2 < 11.4 psig





Nope, I do know.
It was a component of the experiment I ran.

In mine, I exposed 3 official game balls 6to cold water (@ 48°F), then cold air (@ 50°F) for 70 minutes. I ran 3 duty cycles of water/air, just to look for a difference.

These cycles were intended to be a "reasonable simulation" of a ball's typical use. One play used, dried off,

i) 1 minute immersion in cold water, dry off with a towel, 9 minutes cold air. (7 cycles = 70 minutes)
ii) 1 minutes immersion, dry off, 4 minutes cold air. (14 cycles = 70 minutes)
iii) 7 minutes immersion, dry off, 3 minutes room temp (71°F) (7 cycles = 70 minutes)

The pressure drop over the course of the testing reached the same steady state level, which tells me that even the 1 minute water/9 minutes cold air had sufficient heat transfer to reach the steady state cold value (represented by the 7 minute immersion/3 minute room temp air).

The dousing exposure to cold rain & water guarantees a HIGH heat transfer between the balls & the cold water/air when the balls were cooling off.

Drying the balls off & sitting them in a warm room (with cold water soaked leather) and only convection as the heat transfer mechanism guarantees a LOW heat transfer when the balls were warming up.

A full 3 hours after concluding my tests, drying the balls off & sitting at room temp, the pressure in the balls was STILL in the low 11 psi range.



Theoretical physics can explain a drop of about 1.3 psi between 75°F & 49°F.
Experimental physics (at least in my tests) suggests a drop of 1.5 psi between those same temps.




I missed your explanation as to how this is possible.
The ONLY way that I see this to be possible is for someone to have been inflating the balls while they were cold.

Can you point me to where you described your explanations?
__

In conclusion, having run the experiments, I am completely comfortable stating that I consider the issue settled within the likely extremes of initial & final values for temp & pressure.

One factor that isn't needed to explain any further psi loss is that rain is often quite a bit colder than sea level air temperature (or warmer).

And another factor I haven't heard talked about, but one I wonder about is the strong cooling effect of evaporation. A wet football being spun at great velocity (60 mph or more) as its thrown just seems like it might have the potential to cool several degrees from my limited understanding of natural refrigeration techniques.
 
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One factor that isn't needed to explain any further psi loss is that rain is often quite a bit colder than sea level air temperature (or warmer).

And another factor I haven't heard talked about, but one I wonder about is the strong cooling effect of evaporation. A wet football being spun at great velocity (60 mph or more) as its thrown just seems like it might have the potential to cool several degrees from my limited understanding of natural refrigeration techniques.

That might help it cool faster, but it doesn't change the fundamental fact that the football can't transfer heat away if it's colder than the air around it.
 
Belichick joked that Letterman should be a witness when the Patriots are interviewed next month. Next Month? Does that mean they aren't even talking to him until March? If so, set your calendars until July- that is probably when the report gets released.

Edit: I wouldn't be surprised if they try to release the report close to the draft. That way, the imbeciles at the league office can quickly redirect the national dialogue.

Goodell's plan is to release the report right before the draft
He'll take a draft pick away
There won't be time enough for Kraft to appeal
Mission accomplished!
 
Goodell's plan is to release the report right before the draft
He'll take a draft pick away
There won't be time enough for Kraft to appeal
Mission accomplished!
Yeah but Goodell will look funny announcing the First Round in a wheelchair.
 
BM, can you point me at these reasons.
Thanks.

Nice work with your post above, BTW. That's great stuff.

My reasoning was going back to the HeadSmart experiments. I might be forgetting the numbers now, but I believe they saw a 1.2 drop due to temperature, and another .6 drop for a wet ball. So right there, you can explain balls that have approaching a 2 PSI drop vs one that has a 1 PSI drop, assuming not all the balls got into play or wet. To get a ball all the way to 2, all you need is someone to gauge it once before the refs did (Colts??).

For balls that had not a full PSI drop (the "tick" balls), my assumption - though I don't think anyone has actually tested this one, correct me if I'm wrong - was that if the balls never left the bag, the air inside of them would not have come to temperature with the outside air yet. That's probably worth testing, but I saw a suggestion that the balls inside the bag would insulate each other a little.

We don't know how many of the 11* balls were in play, were wet, were just sitting in the bag on the sideline (were they near the huge space heaters they roll out there?). Unless all balls got into play and all balls got wet, I would not expect them to have the same PSI when measured.

*What continues to be unaddressed is if ball #12 did in fact get thrown into the stands by Blount & not reclaimed by NFL in the first half as suggested.
 
Goodell's plan is to release the report right before the draft
He'll take a draft pick away
There won't be time enough for Kraft to appeal
Mission accomplished!
Pissah, I think if Goodell does take a pick, Kraft will get appeal time. But, I don't think they'll be any sanction because I don't think the NFL has enough, or anything for that matter.
 


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