Bold Statement: 2014 receiving corps is the best in franchise history

ATS16N0 said:

I think the 2007 offense deserves all due praises, but I also think the 2014 offense was much more clutch, and arguably a lot more dynamic. While it isn't apples to apples, I'm thinking about something Belichick said in his 2009 `A Football's Life` - To paraphrase, "Take away Moss and Welker and we're done."

I think a case could be made that a GOOD postseason defense would rather play the 2007 offense than the 2014 offense.

I'd love to see the PPG comparisons AFTER week #4 and compare them to 2007, since I think the first month of football, prior to the offensive line gelling, skews the stats a lot, and doesn't reflect the 2014 team over all.

A few points:
The 2014 played a more difficult schedule, more division leaders, and (without looking) over all better defenses. 2007 faced 5 top 10 defenses, with one of them being the rank 10 Eagles which just barely squeaks into that category. 2014 CRUSHED a lot of QUALITY teams.

2014's post season offense certainly shatters the 2007 postseason offense.

What the 2014 offense did in the play offs is a million times more impressive than what the 2007 offense did(coming back from two 14 point deficits against our conference rivals kryptonite-defense, annihilated the Colts, 4th quarter, two score comeback against the #1 defense in the league)

Moss vs Gronk isn't a proper comparison.
Moss >
Gronk >

Considering the Dolphins went 1-15 that year, and in 2014 the Dolphins and Bills were chasing wildcard spots late in the season, with much better defenses, I'd say our Division games were probably much harder in 2014.

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That Bill statement was made after gaffney and Donte stallworth were gone.Context matters because simply stating results without it skews things.For instance,. comeback against Ravens was good but most of that Ravens secondary was comprised of guys that probably won't start regularly for an Nfl team.

That's laughable that you're implying welker drops every ball because obviously he doesn't. Not even close. That being said welker IMO is not as clutch as Jules. If you look back and see welker has been to 3 sb's he never had the game like Edelman did. In sb 42 welker had 11 catches 103 yards 0 TDs, sb 46 7 catches 60 yards 0 TDs, sb 48 8 catches 84 yards and still 0 TDs. Edelman proved he is clutch and welker proved he isn't. Now I'm not saying welker wasn't elite because he was but you can be elite and not clutch. Payton is a great example of that. So if I had to choose I would pick Jules all day.

I think these kinds of comparisons are largely subjective (which makes the ire of some posters in this thread a little baffling). I don't think this argument is that far fetched. If we're going to denigrate Peyton Manning for having great regular seasons but not performing in the playoffs, we have to measure our team by the same standards. The 07 teams was STACKED, but when they faced a team that wasn't intimidated by them, they struggled. The 14 teams might have less talent on paper, but three 10+ point comebacks against top ten defenses in the league can't be ignored.

You can throw out all the stats you want, but they don't tell the story. They weren't more talented, but the 14 weapons (including TE's and RB's as receivers) was a tougher and more versatile group overall.

This thread's still going?


Ahh..... The offseason.

kudzif said:

That Bill statement was made after gaffney and Donte stallworth were gone.Context matters because simply stating results without it skews things.For instance,. comeback against Ravens was good but most of that Ravens secondary was comprised of guys that probably won't start regularly for an Nfl team.

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I agree, context is good, which is what I'm trying to add instead of just look at the 50 touchdown passes and Randy Moss. A lot of our Star Wars stats in 2007 were gained the same way Peyton's were in the AFC South, with a highly capable offense making fools out of bad defenses. Our strength of schedule was certainly more difficult in 2014, and the production of the first four weeks don't really reflect what this team was. Also, as has just been pointed out, our starters also sat in week #17.

When did the rules implementing the practice regulations start? (I forget). Was it after 2007?
If the 2014 came out of the gate in week #1, like they did in week #5, it's likely the 2014 Patriots would of put up superior numbers to the 2007 offense, against over all superior competition.

I don't think this thread is as ridiculous as some people think it is.

2007 was a much better receiving corps than 2014.

Welker caught 77% of his targets that year.
Donte Stallworth averaged 9.3 ypa
Moss broke the TD record
Ben Watson and Kevin Faulk were both in their primes and pretty effective complementary pieces.

Our receiving corps was sneaky good this season, but Gronk wasn't as good as he was in lets say 2011 and JE, BL, and DA aren't nearly as talented as Moss, Stallworth, and Wes. People forget how good Welker was with us because of the falling out he had, but as a pure slot receiver he was a better player in his early Patriots career than Edelman is now.

1960Pats said:

I don't think the 2001-2004 WR's and TEs are getting enough credit for their multiple Lombardis, probably because they had such a great defense and no household names back then.

Having said that, as great as Welker and Edelman are, Troy Brown might have more big plays on both sides of the ball and on special teams than those two combined. He was also part of 5 Pats AFC championss and was a key in 3 of the 4 SB wins.

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The highest ranked offense of the three early 2000s Super Bowl winners was the 2004 offense, and that team had Corey Dillon going for 1,635 yards rushing. David Patten was the top receiver with 56 catches. Brady threw 29 TD passes. http://www.pro-football-reference.com/teams/nwe/2004.htm

In 2007 Wes Welker caught 112 passes. 112! Randy Moss caught 24 TD passes by himself and Brady set the record with 50 TD passes. Just amazing.

What makes Belichick/Brady so remarkable is that they have dominated the NFL for 14 years with no two teams being alike and beating people with defense, passing, rushing, two TEs, smurfs, elite secondaries, awful secondaries, you name it.

Let me say it. Brady is the best QB of all time. His 2014 season was one his very best.

So, we are saying that Gronk, Vereen, Edelman, LaFell are the best set of receivers in the NFL, and in the history of the NFL?

If we are talking SB, then all that matter is that we won. We had the best everything because we won. That being said, Brady and Gronk are all-world.

Edelman is great. We like to compare him to Troy Brown and Welker 2007. He's great, but not that great. What would Edelman earn on the open market? On another team? Make no mistake. Edelman is awesome in a patriot uni.

Does anyone think that LaFell is a great receiver, one of the best in the NFL? If his production looks like that, it is because he has Brady, Josh and Bill.

Some folks consider Vereen the best there is and then no that we he isn't worth $3M or so to us. Vereen is NOT Faulk, not even close.

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I'll say what so many have said so many times. Brady has produced more than any QB in the history of the NFL. And he has done this lots weaker players on offense than other great QB's. The comparison has been with regard to his supporting cast, and that of Manning or Montana or the others.
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To me, Bill makes it work precisely because he doesn't need to have lots of all-pros on the offense. Brady has had Moss, Welker and Gronk. Other have had many more.

I don't really care whether 2007 or 2014 had the best receiving corps. If 2007 had a HOF WR, 2014 has a HOF TE. Both are good groups thus denying the need to pursue a su
per star that we can't afford in any case. I suspect that the 2014 edition is a tad deeper though.

What this discussion proves is that a deep receiving corp, of WRs, TEs and 3rd RBs, who are all merely good, is better than a receiving corp of 2 super star recievers.

The 2004 reciever corps gets my vote. Loved the Branch, Givens, Parren, Brown, Faulk, Graham offense.

AzPatsFan said:

What this discussion proves is that a deep receiving corp, of WRs, TEs and 3rd RBs, who are all merely good, is better than a receiving corp of 2 super star recievers.

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There are 150 posts that talk about how the 07 Pats had Moss, WW, Stallworth and Gaffney. Don't forget Faulk and Watson. Thats 6 receivers with over 36 catches.

With that said, how are 2 super star receivers and 4 good receivers better than 2014 Pats 1 super star receiver and 5 good ones better?

1960Pats said:

That's not how I remember it. I was surprised how well Revis guarded Moss. I remember one TD where Revis got caught looking at Moss on a quick strike to the left, but for the most part Revis did better than anyone else against Moss.

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Solid points. I was specifically talking about the TD in the end zone that left revis gimpy.

You know what is sorta sad. This 2007 team went out and provided us with the greatest FU tour ever. They pummeled teams like no one ever did. They played there asses off every game and gave us the best offense in the history of the NFL. The team had character up and down including; Bruschi, Vrabel, Seau, Falk, Harrison, even the great Troy Brown did a little punt return for us. A team that will always be in the discussion of greatest ever despite getting beat by a completely fluke play.

What do they get? Posters who claim they were some guys who lost, were not clutch etc.

Some of you should be embarrassed that you are patriot fans. I dont even want to get into the 01-04 dynasty teams much less some of the other incredible teams we have had over the years. Did some of you start following the team a couple years ago?

Bruins29 said:

You know what is sorta sad. This 2007 team went out and provided us with the greatest FU tour ever. They pummeled teams like no one ever did. They played there asses off every game and gave us the best offense in the history of the NFL. The team had character up and down including; Bruschi, Vrabel, Seau, Falk, Harrison, even the great Troy Brown did a little punt return for us. A team that will always be in the discussion of greatest ever despite getting beat by a completely fluke play.

What do they get? Posters who claim they were some guys who lost, were not clutch etc.

Some of you should be embarrassed that you are patriot fans. I dont even want to get into the 01-04 dynasty teams much less some of the other incredible teams we have had over the years. Did some of you start following the team a couple years ago?

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It's not something we claim. It's a fact that they lost. And the passing game in that postseason was awful.

The remnants of the 2001-2004 teams you mentioned were on the down side of their careers in 2007. Even so, I will remember guys like Troy Brown and Deion Branch much more than I will Randy Moss or Wes Welker. Randy Moss was brought to NE to help us win a championship. When it mattered most - in the postseason - he was nothing for us. That's not an exaggeration, it's just a fact.

I value postseason success and championships above all else. I think most players do, as well as most organizations and fans. What this offense was able to do this year has never been matched by any other NE team.

Now, if you're talking about entire teams, than the 2001-2004 teams rank higher overall, without question. I've wanted the current team to be more like that (in terms of personnel and character) for a while now. I think it's starting to move in that direction, but it's not there yet.

FourierSeries said:

It's not something we claim. It's a fact that they lost. And the passing game in that postseason was awful.

The remnants of the 2001-2004 teams you mentioned were on the down side of their careers in 2007. Even so, I will remember guys like Troy Brown and Deion Branch much more than I will Randy Moss or Wes Welker. Randy Moss was brought to NE to help us win a championship. When it mattered most - in the postseason - he was nothing for us. That's not an exaggeration, it's just a fact.

I value postseason success and championships above all else. I think most players do, as well as most organizations and fans. What this offense was able to do this year has never been matched by any other NE team.

Now, if you're talking about entire teams, than the 2001-2004 teams rank higher overall, without question. I've wanted the current team to be more like that (in terms of personnel and character) for a while now. I think it's starting to move in that direction, but it's not there yet.

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Why do you keep on ignoring the fact that Brady had a sprained ankle in the AFC Championship and was not playing good (3 picks)? And he still had a sprained ankle and the o-line was getting murdered in the Super Bowl? Both of those will diminish a wide receiver's production. Your argument lacks context.

Edit: Randy was also going through that whole ******** sexual abuse accusations the whole postseason which more than likely distracted him from his game.

I am going to side with the 2007 folks for one reason, while the 14 group was good deep and talented across the board they never struck the fear of God into opponents the way 07 did. It's easy to forget that one team tried an onside kick on the opening kickoff just to steal a possession. Buffalo one game said you only get 8 possessions as we will slow this game to a crawl. What did they do? Only went 8/8 and won the game 56-10 or some blow out like that. When everything was clicking the 07 offense was the most unstoppable thing I have ever seen on a football field.

Now to the people who point to the low production during the playoffs in 07, valid point but I would counter with how tiring it must be to go 16-0 with every team hounding you. The non stop media coverage telling you just how good you are. It's hard to bring the extra effort week in and week out and unfortunately by the super bowl they ran out of steam, they peaked too early and lost a heartbreaker. One game does not make up for an entire season of pure destruction they had rained upon opponents. Compare that to what the 14 season had to deal with. Plenty of challenges certainly and I will not for a millisecond demean their mental toughness to get thru it all but they were able to bunker down with an us against the world mentality where everyone was questioning their hrd work and integrity. Easier to do IMO.

To me this debate is not fair if it comes down to one won the super bowl the other didn't. I ask myself the question what was 07 like at its best, what was 14 like at its best and I answer 07 was flat out unstoppable. Now I do think giving all the 14 weapons another year to gel and play together is going to make next season a VERY interesting year and it would not surprise me at all to see the Pats go on another FU tour that puts the question 07 or 15?

I also have 2007, and it's not close.


However, I'd like to bring attention to one squad that I feel needs some recognition. I feel the 2011 weapons are also better than 2014.

We got:



Welker - his best seasons as a Patriot. 122 catches 1500 yards 9 TDs. The people who say Edelman is better than Welker ever was need to look at some tape from this season. Almost 13 yards per reception, very impressive for a slot WR.

Gronk - his best statistical season by far, and I'd argue he was better that year than this year overall period. He looked so much quicker and agile. Of course this Gronk wasn't coming back from an ACL.

Hernandez - terrible person, but it's forgotten how great he was as a Patriot. One of the more versatile Patriots of all time, unbelievable in the open field.

Branch - this is where he really started to show signs of decline, but he was still very solid due to his chemistry with Brady. 700 yards as the 4th option, what more can you ask for.

Woodhead - I was going to write about how great he was in 2011, but I looked at his stats and he only had 18 catches. I felt like he was more involved, but I guess he did most of his damage in 2012. I do remember he was great in the playoffs catching balls out of the backfield, particularly in the Super Bowl.

Ochocinco - ehhhhh, how about we just ignore this one..

Anyways, I've always felt 2011 was the more entertaining offense aside from 2007. The defense was atrocious in 2011, and this offense deserves credit for carrying the team to another Super Bowl that frankly not a lot of people thought they'd make it to. The 2011 Gronk/Hernandez/Welker trio easily trumps any trio you wanna stack from this season.

I know we want to celebrate these guys for giving us an amazing season, but let's keep some perspective...

glm said:

Why do you keep on ignoring the fact that Brady had a sprained ankle in the AFC Championship and was not playing good (3 picks)? And he still had a sprained ankle and the o-line was getting murdered in the Super Bowl? Both of those will diminish a wide receiver's production. Your argument lacks context.

Edit: Randy was also going through that whole ******** sexual abuse accusations the whole postseason which more than likely distracted him from his game.

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It is an odd argument. You can use the same logic to "prove" that the 2011 DBs were better than 2014's. They only allowed 7, 20 and 21 points in 2011 as opposed to 31, 7 and 24 this year! This defense twice allowed more than 2011 did in any game! Obviously they were the superior group!

Oswlek said:

It is an odd argument. You can use the same logic to "prove" that the 2011 DBs were better than 2014's. They only allowed 7, 20 and 21 points in 2011 as opposed to 31, 7 and 24 this year! This defense twice allowed more than 2011 did in any game! Obviously they were the superior group!

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Exactly, his logic is also telling me that the receiving corp in 2003 was better than 2007's because they scored more points in the postseason. They also had more receiving yards. David Givens had more receiving yards than Randy so Givens>Moss clearly.

Really since we're talking about postseason performances, let's not forget the great opportunities this defense afforded Brady. The 2007 and 2011 offenses would have never been able to pull of consecutive three and outs in the 2nd half the way the 2014 defense did. This allowed this offense to make their comebacks and now he perceived as "clutch" as they are.

In 2007, the offense had the same clutch drive at the end of the game that gave the defense a 4 point lead with less than 3 minutes to go. A helmet catch, Asante drop, and terrible Hobbs-Burress matchup later, the 2007 offense is no longer clutch. There was no Malcolm Butler to save them there.

Same case for 2011, the offense had the same lull periods for most of the 3rd quarter and start of 4th. What did the 2014 defense do? Gave the offense the ball back quickly with 3 and outs. What did the 2011 defense do? Slowly gave up the lead with 6+ minute drives. They had a chance at their trademark drive but it slipped out of Welker's fingers. It happens. From there they didn't get the ball back until there was a minute left and it was Hail Mary time.