Andy Benoit :Final Super Bowl XLIX film study

shmessy · Feb 8, 2015

ausbacker said:
No, it's not all there in the video. You're throwing out selective comments and spurious rationale in an attempt to convince yourself that you're putting forward a sound argument. Frankly, the further you develop this train of thought, the more absurd it appears.

That split second Harmon has to diagnose and execute this apparently simple play isn't a simple as you would have us believe @shmessy.

You are using generalities and words without data points. That's a [poster name - self deleted]-like post.

At least Ray Clay is arguing points.

ausbacker · Feb 8, 2015

shmessy said:
You are using generalities and words without data points. That's a Deus-like post.

At least Ray Clay is arguing points.

Stop with the ********. I've made my points clearly and concisely in multiple posts.

You can reference minutes, field position and camera angles all you like. The reality is, your position is ridiculous, especially when you throw in Harmon should have had muscle memory coached into him to break up a circus catch at full speed.

I'm not arguing this point with you anymore. It's now little more than circle work.

shmessy · Feb 8, 2015

ausbacker said:
Stop with the ********. I've made my points clearly and concisely in multiple posts.

You can reference minutes, field position and camera angles all you like. The reality is, your position is ridiculous, especially when you throw in Harmon should have had muscle memory coached into him to break up a circus catch at full speed.

"Stop with the ********. I've made my points clearly and concisely in multiple posts...."

Wow, sounding just like him again.

"You can reference minutes, field position and camera angles all you like...."

So what are you referencing?

The only muscle memory for a safety in that situation is to separate the receiver from the juggling ball, not to jump over the juggling act- - that is IF the safety is actually LOOKING AT THE BALL and not at something beyond the sideline.

RayClay · Feb 8, 2015

shmessy said:
He jumped over a guy juggling a ball. He jumped over him for a reason. Because he was right over him while he was juggling and Harmon clearly wasn't looking at the ball (something you are not addressing, but is clear from the videos - - just look at the helmet angle). The guy took his eye off the ball.

Obviously we'll have to agree to disagree on this.

At least they won the game.

Harmon's momentum is straight to the sideline. The play is coming right at him, but from his side. He jumps to avoid the player coming at him, not a player thast's lying there. The ball is around his legs, as he's sliding.

In the third angle from NBC, it's another shot, but the opposite. Stiil from the sideline, still no depth perception, but you ca see Harmon flying by like a bullet, not hanging there looking like he could just swat the ball.

He's simply about 6 foot of Kearse away from the ball in the split second he's in the area, then Kearse, sliding, controls the ball, but Harmon is almost in the stands by that point.

All three angles are bad, because they are sideline cameras recording a sideline play and there's an illusion of no depth. However, look at all three and you see what you thought you saw, you didn't.

Of course a camera on the field or a blimp cam would at least show how far he was from the ball, but the third camera with him flying by u=in the other direction blows up the swat the ball theory easily.

RayClay · Feb 8, 2015

Look at the yard line markers as you see Harmon being so close he could make a play and remember that 5 yards is fifteen feet.

ausbacker · Feb 8, 2015

All 22 in sequence screen grabs. Apologies for the quality.

RayClay · Feb 8, 2015

Here's the angle about halfway through. Still, no depth perseption at all, but it shows how fast Harmon was going when he had to jump to avoid tripping over the tumbling Kearse.

Kearse isn't laying down, he travels about 4 yds on his back.

juny · Feb 8, 2015

if you look at football zebras twitter account, Kearse was in one of the NFL's defenseless receiver positions so Harmon's probability of getting a 15 yard penalty is much greater than the probability that Kearse completes the circus catch. With the current NFL rules, not sure how you can fault Harmon too much on that play. If this was 5-10 years ago, yeah he should have drilled the receiver.

Fencer · Feb 8, 2015

It has been my contention that Harmon should have launched himself to fly over Kearse's and Butler's bodies low, rather than jumping high as he did. The idea is that he's probably have avoided a penalty, but also had a chance to disrupt a potential circus catch.

But upon seeing that video, I'm not so sure. I now suspect that he would have had to make that decision before he knew Kearse and Butler would both fall down, in which case it wouldn't actually have been a prudent decision.

RxJock1120 · Feb 8, 2015

patfanken said:
That's a tough 20-20 hindsight call. If you look at it from Harmon's point of view, he see's that the pass was successfully broken up. If he plows into the falling Kearse, he opens himself up to an unnecessary roughness penalty. In perfect hindsight with the ball taking about 3 perfect bounces, does his decision to avoid contact look like a mistake

I thought the same thing initially, but after about 100 more looks came to the conclusion that Harmon should have been playing the ball the whole time. So if he was going only for the ball, the chances of a penalty would have been slim. But then again Harmon only got 1 look at the play....

ausbacker · Feb 8, 2015

RxJock1120 said:
I thought the same thing initially, but after about 100 more looks came to the conclusion that Harmon should have been playing the ball the whole time. So if he was going only for the ball, the chances of a penalty would have been slim. But then again Harmon only got 1 look at the play....

That's the thing @RxJock1120. What appears easy to people from the comfort of their homes most certainly isn't on the field of battle and at full speed.

My initial impression was that Harmon should have made a play on the ball then I wisened up to the final component of your commentary and reassessed the situation.

I.M. Fletcher · Feb 8, 2015

I cant believe this much conversation is happening about Harmon's performance about that one split second.

On the other hand, if you want to talk about someone who secretly didnt have a great game, Jamie Collins struggled on a handful of the games most important plays.

But alas, its all for not, we are champions, so stop with the incessant vitriol directed at each other. We still have 2 more months of grace and happiness before we have any reason to say anything less than nice to each other. Once the draft happens, you can all go back to your name calling and points of contention, but I for one am still walking around with my O-face on.

mb6592 · Feb 8, 2015

RayClay said:
You understand That he's running at full speed in a different direction, then goes airborne, right? If you want to believe what you see in camera angles that flatten the depth perception, that there's a point where he can shift his body in mid air and intercept the ball instead of landing a couple yards past the sideline, i can't convince you otherwise. I've got the game and there's an angle from the side that shows how much distance there is and where his momentum is going.

ausbacker said:
What an utterly ridiculous position to hold. It leads me to the conclusion that you have never played sport to a high level and experienced the pressure of the moment.

The problem you and @shmessy are running in to is neither of you are giving any consideration to game speed. @shmessy thinks it's a simple case of training muscle memory. Apparently Coach Belichick can coach his Safeties to run across the field and break up a circus catch where their teammate had good position and more often than not, the play goes dead. I know he's the second coming but c'mon man.

It is truly remarkable that some factions of Patsfans are making it out to be an easy play and something that could be easily coached against. The reality suggests otherwise.

I was livid at Brady's 2nd interception then you rewatch the play and realise it was nowhere near as bad as your first impression may have you believe. There's a handful of LBs in the NFL who make that play just like there would probably be a handful of DBs capable of making the play you two are suggesting could be made with ease.

Dudes - he jumped over him. He purposely, at "full game speed" hopped over him. If he had the ability and wherewithal to pull/slow up just before he jumped over him, he had the ability (and should have had the wherewithal) to play the ball.

ausbacker · Feb 8, 2015

mb6592 said:
Dudes - he jumped over him. He purposely, at "full game speed" purposely hopped over him. If he had the ability and wherewithal to jump over him, he had the ability (and should have had the wherewithal) to play the ball.

If it's such a simple play, I expect to see your YouTube upload by the close of business tomorrow with an accompanying physics & biomechanical breakdown demonstrating angles, speed, velocity and decision making.

Hey, it's pretty simple right?

ctpatsfan77 · Feb 8, 2015

Here's the thing, though. . . .

It might actually have been worse if that catch hadn't worked. Think about it: the Seahawks were still in four-down territory, and the Patriots would still have to defend everything from the LOS to the EZ.

RayClay · Feb 8, 2015

mb6592 said:
Dudes - he jumped over him. He purposely, at "full game speed" hopped over him. If he had the ability and wherewithal to pull/slow up just before he jumped over him, he had the ability (and should have had the wherewithal) to play the ball.

Huh? If he could have slowed up, he wouldn't have had to jump over him. It's not like he was trying to make a play in the first row.

RayClay · Feb 8, 2015

Harmon was running full speed to get between Kearse and the end zone to prevent a touchdown.

The idea that he should have assumed that, after having the ball whacked by Butler, Kearnes would have gone down, slid, spun around and juggled the ball 2-3 times between his foot, knee and hands...then changed his plan so that he could play the ball at the high point of one of the three juggles, makes the word absurd seem somewhat inadequate.

captain stone · Feb 9, 2015

ausbacker said:
How do you propose he obtained the ball?

I don't know…by trying for it?

captain stone · Feb 9, 2015

juny said:
...With the current NFL rules, not sure how you can fault Harmon too much on that play. If this was 5-10 years ago, yeah he should have drilled the receiver.

He didn't need to, nor should he, drill the receiver. He should have played the damn ball.
Big difference.

NormZauchin · Feb 9, 2015

I thought Harmon had made a mistake in not going for the ball, but after watching the play numerous times in slow motion on NFL rewind, I've concluded that short of hitting Kearse, Harmon could not have stopped the reception. Harmon was running close to full speed as he closed in on Kearse. When his feet were by Kearse's helmet, he started to jump, but the ball, at that moment, was down by Kearse's right knee. It did not pop up into the air till Harmon was clear of Kearse's body. In other words, Harmon had no play on the ball given his speed and angle; he could have broken up the pass only with a hit on Kearse.

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