The Defensive Front Seven

By the way, I hope Casillas is back for special teams, and maybe some dime sets, but lets hope he never plays LB for us again.

mgteich said:

Casillas is a fine player for what it is likely to cost to re-sign him. We need at least one backup at LB who can play special teams.

Ayers will be much more expensive, but he is able to start at DE (in case of injury) as well as being a backup linebacker, so he's worth the extra money.

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Hightower could start at DE in case of injury, too, or even as part of rotation that gives Nink some rest or allows Jones to move to DT in passing situations. One question is whether Mayo comes back from injury well enough to be a 3-down LB. If he is slower and struggles in coverage, the Pats sub defense might need HT and Collins at LB and not at DE. leaving the DE position short on depth. Still, I don't see Ayers as a fit in that role. The money is needed elsewhere, and if he strikes-out in FA and can be signed for less, he signs a one-year prove-it deal somewhere that he can expect more playing time. I'll be genuinely surprised if Ayers is with the team next year.

AndyJohnson said:

How is Wilfork an 'option'?
He outplayed the expectations they had when they gave him this contract extension. He is going nowehere.

Ayers isn't going to stay on a team that he gets only a handful of snaps on when Mayo is on IR. He will want to compete for a starting job. He cannot do that here. I'd love to keep him, but he will not be wlling to stay.

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Your argument is sound. The expectation would have to be either that he will will take rotational snaps from both Jones AND Ninkovich, or that Jones will kick inside more leaving room for 3 "edge rushers". The former could happen as Ninkovich ages; the latter could happen if Jones is healthier; neither is assured.

Signing him doesn't make sense unless the Pats believe that a full off-season will make him more valuable than he was this past year.

I do note that he was playing in the goal-line set on the final drive of the Super Bowl, in that he helped bring down Lynch (albeit after a 4-yard gain).

Fencer said:

Your argument is sound. The expectation would have to be either that he will will take rotational snaps from both Jones AND Ninkovich, or that Jones will kick inside more leaving room for 3 "edge rushers". The former could happen as Ninkovich ages; the latter could happen if Jones is healthier; neither is assured.

Signing him doesn't make sense unless the Pats believe that a full off-season will make him more valuable than he was this past year.

I do note that he was playing in the goal-line set on the final drive of the Super Bowl, in that he helped bring down Lynch (albeit after a 4-yard gain).

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There was really no attempt to get him on the field instead of, or along with, Jones and Nink as a pass rusher. Basically when Jones got healthy, Ayers was reduced to a reserve who barely saw the field.
Yes he was in at times, but not enough to warrant him wanting to stay under those conditions, or to indicate the Pats think he is worth 3-4mill a year. His value will even sink further if Mayo returns.
He played well when Jones was out, but that was about the extend of it. I am sure there are teams who would want him to compete for major playing time. There is no reason for him to stay with one that has already determined he wouldn't play more than a handful of snaps, but for injuires.

AndyJohnson said:

By the end of the season he barely saw the field. I cannot justify paying him 3 to 4mill to sit on the bench playing 5 snaps a week. I cannot see him want to stay with the scarce playing time he is getting.
Your scenario stinks for both the player and team, Ayers never plays, and the Pats pay him a lot of money to do so.
I don't think I want a player who would be content sitting the bench.

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You said this last year and you were right. As long as Belichick can go out and find and Ayers, Casillas< Branch and a Blount, he don't have to pay for backups. I understand your argument and I disagree. As with the position of backup QB, I think the position of backup DE and OLB is very important. BTW, how much do we pay Cannon to sit on the bench.

IMHO, we can backups that are paid even thought they don't play much. I have 4 such positions: DE/OLB, OG/C, OT and QB.

I understand that it may eb difficult to accomplish this especially with lots of aging. I think that it is possible. I would pay Cannon, Connolly (as a backup even if we draft a starting LG), Ayers and Garappolo as valuable highly paid backups. I understand that you disagree, as you did last year. Ayers is somewhat different in that he backs up both DE and OLB. I think that last year, I wanted to spend $3M-$4M on a backup DE. Ayers is even more valuable than such a free agent, since he is a proven commodity and plays two positions.

That being said, I think that we will re-sign Casillas and count on Moore and Buchanan. We'll count on Ninkovich and Jones to play 90% of the defensive reps.

mgteich said:

You said this last year and you were right. As long as Belichick can go out and find and Ayers, Casillas< Branch and a Blount, he don't have to pay for backups. I understand your argument and I disagree.

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No you don't understand my argument.
My argument is why would Ayers want to stay on a team that has shown him he will not play, and why would BB pay 3 to 4 mill to a LB who wasnt playing barely at all when a LB was already injured?
Somehow you turned that into me saying don't pay for depth because I disagree with your method of paying for depth and naivete that Ayers would come back to sit when he will have a chance to play elsewhere.

As with the position of backup QB, I think the position of backup DE and OLB is very important. BTW, how much do we pay Cannon to sit on the bench.

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I'm nit sure who said depth isn't important? I said the player you want to spend on isn't worth what you want to spend.
Cannon, about 2.6 mill next year, which is somewhere just less than the average of the cap divided by 53 players.

IMHO, we can backups that are paid even thought they don't play much. I have 4 such positions: DE/OLB, OG/C, OT and QB.

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Of course we can have backups, we just would be silly to pay them like starters if they cannot contribute.

I understand that it may eb difficult to accomplish this especially with lots of aging. I think that it is possible. I would pay Cannon, Connolly (as a backup even if we draft a starting LG), Ayers and Garappolo as valuable highly paid backups.

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Garaoppolo is not highly paid. Connolly will come back with a starting job in hand if he is resigned.
Ayers would be great to keep, but won't want to stay, and the money you are offering him is ridiculous.

I understand that you disagree, as you did last year.

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What did I disagree with last year? I've always been a huge proponent of depth, but part of valuing depth is that there is only so much money to go around so if you overpay a guy like Ayers you will end up weaker elsewhere.

Ayers is somewhat different in that he backs up both DE and OLB. I think that last year, I wanted to spend $3M-$4M on a backup DE. Ayers is even more valuable than such a free agent, since he is a proven commodity and plays two positions.

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Does he though? He did not play LB much at all. His playing time decreased. I think what he proved is that he is limited, and the result was that he saw next to no playing time down the stretch. Not sure a 'commodity' wastes away on the sidelines while the only 2 LBs and only 2 DEs we have never get a break.

That being said, I think that we will re-sign Casillas and count on Moore and Buchanan. We'll count on Ninkovich and Jones to play 90% of the defensive reps.

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No reason not to play Nink and Jones as much as they can handle.
Really Mayo is the replacement for Ayers (I know they don't play the same role, but the other players on the field with them would shift roles depending on which one was in). At DE we will roll Glass man Buchanan out there again, but will surely add other depth type players in the draft or cheaply as FA along the lines of Trevor Scott.
I don't see a future for Moore as a DE in this system, I think he will bulk up and be an inisde sub package rusher.
Easely will be interesting in terms of his use. Remember he played in Jones spot for a game.

I like to look at suspiciously interesting facts and try to interpret their significance.

Recently, the Pats re-signed their PS players for a return to TC.

All signed for 1 year, except for one player who signed for two years. Curious. Why?

It was a guy you would expect might not be re-signed at all, but he got a 2 year deal. Curiouser.

Jake Bequette was a high draft pick from the SEC with ideal size for his position, but has been a bust who seemingly was never cut when you expected him to be long ago. Now he has a 2 year extension. What is happening behind the scenes? Curiouser and curiouser.

BB has been rebuilding this Defense for going on 5 years. It hasn't fully matured but is significant even now. It has 5 first or second round talents on the line. It has 4 in the LB corp. It has 4 in the secondary. That does not include other stars and good players like Ninkovitch, Harmon, Slater Butler or Fonzie. I think it is time to just let the Defense marinate, gell and mature.

It is time to turn attention to the Offense and re-upholser it. Brady is the only QB who ever threw 50+ passes in a game, and still won. He did it twice, in these Playoffs. Let us fix the problem that neccessitated that extraordinary effort.

It is time to add talent to the Offensive line, to be able to force a successful running game. Draft a big, higher rated LOT candidate, who is also very proficient in the Run game for LG on the Mankins model and get a 2-fer, starting LG & swing Left tackle.

Even perhaps add to the offensive skill positions too. Unlike others I want Ridley, and Vereen back, and even to add a complete RB, who can both run and catch, to add to the RBBC.

AzPatsFan said:

BB has been rebuilding this Defense for going on 5 years. It hasn't fully matured but is significant even now. It has 5 first or second round talents on the line. It has 4 in the LB corp. It has 4 in the secondary. That does not include other stars and good players like Ninkovitch, Harmon, Slater Butler or Fonzie. I think it is time to just let the Defense marinate, gell and mature.

It is time to turn attention to the Offense and re-upholser it. Brady is the only QB who ever threw 50+ passes in a game, and still won. He did it twice, in these Playoffs. Let us fix the problem that neccessitated that extraordinary effort.

It is time to add talent to the Offensive line, to be able to force a successful running game. Draft a big, higher rated LOT candidate, who is also very proficient in the Run game for LG on the Mankins model and get a 2-fer, starting LG & swing Left tackle.

Even perhaps add to the offensive skill positions too. Unlike others I want Ridley, and Vereen back, and even to add a complete RB, who can both run and catch, to add to the RBBC.

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I dont think it was a 'necessitated extraordinary effort' I think it was good coaching to put the game in the hands of the GOAT.

By the way, the actual stat is in the playoffs alltime Brady is 4-1 when throwing 50+ and everyone else is 3-27.
And there is a very clear reason why.
Most QBs were forced to throw it 50 times, usually because they were behind.
The Patriots CHOSE TO have Brady throw it 50 times.

AzPatsFan said:

I like to look at suspiciously interesting facts and try to interpret their significance.

Recently, the Pats re-signed their PS players for a return to TC.

All signed for 1 year, except for one player who signed for two years. Curious. Why?

It was a guy you would expect might not be re-signed at all, but he got a 2 year deal. Curiouser.

Jake Bequette was a high draft pick from the SEC with ideal size for his position, but has been a bust who seemingly was never cut when you expected him to be long ago. Now he has a 2 year extension. What is happening behind the scenes? Curiouser and curiouser.

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Actually, signing for two years is a benefit to the team. If he works out well, they get him cheap for longer.

The reason could be nothing more than his perceived lack of alternatives.

SammyBlueCat said:

Will Jake Bequette finally make the team or will he be sent packing?

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He's already been signed to a two year extension.

Fencer said:

Before this season we were talking about using Hightower and/or Collins as part-time edge rushers. So indirectly, Mayo could add edge rusher depth.

That said, Jones is injury-prone and Ninkovich is over 30, so I'd really like to see Ayers-quality depth in an edge rusher role, if it can be afforded.

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I'd hoped our experience with JE might have cured the 'he's injury prone thing'. This is the only season Jones has missed extensive time. Injuries are more bad luck than 'proness' IMO.

rochrist said:

He's already been signed to a two year extension.

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Doesn't mean he will make the team. He didn't this year. It just means that if he does, he will be locked up for 2 years. I wold assume it has something to do with tenure, as he has been around a lot longer than most ps guys.

I give Wilfork a better chance than Mayo of being here week 1 ...... first, the pats won without Mayo....2nd, even though cutting Mayo doesn't provide much help this year, it proved a ton of help in 2016. 3rd, without Wilfork, the pats run defense is pretty bad.

AndyJohnson said:

No you don't understand my argument.
My argument is why would Ayers want to stay on a team that has shown him he will not play, and why would BB pay 3 to 4 mill to a LB who wasnt playing barely at all when a LB was already injured?
Somehow you turned that into me saying don't pay for depth because I disagree with your method of paying for depth and naivete that Ayers would come back to sit when he will have a chance to play elsewhere.


I'm nit sure who said depth isn't important? I said the player you want to spend on isn't worth what you want to spend.
Cannon, about 2.6 mill next year, which is somewhere just less than the average of the cap divided by 53 players.


Of course we can have backups, we just would be silly to pay them like starters if they cannot contribute.


Garaoppolo is not highly paid. Connolly will come back with a starting job in hand if he is resigned.
Ayers would be great to keep, but won't want to stay, and the money you are offering him is ridiculous.


What did I disagree with last year? I've always been a huge proponent of depth, but part of valuing depth is that there is only so much money to go around so if you overpay a guy like Ayers you will end up weaker elsewhere.


Does he though? He did not play LB much at all. His playing time decreased. I think what he proved is that he is limited, and the result was that he saw next to no playing time down the stretch. Not sure a 'commodity' wastes away on the sidelines while the only 2 LBs and only 2 DEs we have never get a break.


No reason not to play Nink and Jones as much as they can handle.
Really Mayo is the replacement for Ayers (I know they don't play the same role, but the other players on the field with them would shift roles depending on which one was in). At DE we will roll Glass man Buchanan out there again, but will surely add other depth type players in the draft or cheaply as FA along the lines of Trevor Scott.
I don't see a future for Moore as a DE in this system, I think he will bulk up and be an inisde sub package rusher.
Easely will be interesting in terms of his use. Remember he played in Jones spot for a game.

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I'll try to make this more simple. Your position was the same last year, and Belichick agreed with YOU.

1) You don't think that Ayers is worth $3M-$4M to the patriots as a backup DE. I believe that he did get reps as a LB in at least one of the playoff game, playing instead of Casillas. Last year, you took a similar position when some of us wanted to spend this amount of money on a free agent backup DE if one of sufficient quality was available.

2) You believe that it is fine for Ninkovich and Jones (and Collins and Hightower) to play over 90% of the reps. Some of us would be more comfortable if they played more in the 80-85% range.

3) You are correct in saying that I don't understand your emphasis on Ayers lack of reps when Jones was healthy. Ayers was the replacement for Jones (except for the one game where Easley played). I wouldn't expect him to play much if the philosophy is for Ninkovich and Jones to play unless they are injured.

AndyJohnson said:

By the way, I hope Casillas is back for special teams, and maybe some dime sets, but lets hope he never plays LB for us again.

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OK, let me ask for some clarification.

1) Do we need a backup #4 LB on the team, and how much should we expect to pay?

2) Do we need an additional backup DE on the team (in addition to the LB's, Moore and Buchanan), and how much should we expect to pay?

Would like to draft o-line early but perhaps we don't need to if Scar is still helping out with the draft board. Stork looks like a 1st round talent.

ausbacker said:

More recently, I keep thinking a Richard Seymour type player (yes, I know they don't grow on trees) would be a player who may help push this defense over the top. Are there any available in the draft or Free Agency?

I apologize as I need to get up to speed with the prospects and available free agents.

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Here's the free agent list for DE's, Aus:

Defensive ends




Tyson Alualu, Jacksonville Jaguars
Da'Quan Bowers, Tampa Bay Buccaneers
Alan Branch, New England Patriots
Alex Carrington, St. Louis Rams
Adrian Clayborn, Tampa Bay Buccaneers
Brandon Deaderick, New Orleans Saints
Greg Hardy, Carolina Panthers (on Commissioner's Exempt List)
Jerry Hughes, Buffalo Bills
Jarvis Jenkins, Washington Redskins
George Johnson, Detroit Lions
Fili Moala, Indianapolis Colts
Ryan Pickett, Houston Texans
Jason Pierre-Paul, New York Giants
B.J. Raji, Green Bay Packers
Cory Redding, Indianapolis Colts
George Selvie, Dallas Cowboys
Jabaal Sheard, Cleveland Browns
Anthony Spencer, Dallas Cowboys
Darryl Tapp, Detroit Lions
Osi Umenyiora, Atlanta Falcons
C.J. Wilson, Oakland Raiders
Jarius Wynn, Buffalo Bills

Select a defensive end in the first round of the 2015 NFL Draft.

http://www.cbssports.com/nfl/draft/prospectrankings/2015/DE

Owamagbe Odighizuwa, DE - UCLA

2015 New England Patriots Defense (minimum allotment)

Defensive End (4)
Ninkovich, Jones, Odighizuwa, Buchanan/Moore

Defensive Tackle (4)
Wilfork, Siliga (ERFA), Jones, Easley

Linebacker (6)
Mayo, Hightower, Collins, Fleming, White (UFA), Gordon/Martin/Morris/Skinner/UDFA

Safety (5)
McCourty (UFA), Harmon, Chung, Wilson, Ebner

Cornerback (5)
Revis, Browner, Arrington, Dennard?, Ryan?, Butler

http://www.patriots.com/team/roster.html

Brandon Bolden - special teams
Matthew Slater - special teams
Chris White - special teams
Nate Ebner - special teams

Mayo - reduced base salary
Branch - veteran minimum salary or hit the road, jack
Casillas - veteran minimum salary or hit the road, jack

Froob said:

Would like to draft o-line early but perhaps we don't need to if Scar is still helping out with the draft board. Stork looks like a 1st round talent.

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The guy won the award for best center in college football last year, he probably would be a first or second rounder if not for the position that he plays.