My Blueprint for the Defense

patsfaninpa said:

We need to get a little more athletic along the defensive line. It's just so hard to cover. If the ball is near the receivers, they can catch it with the gloves they wear now. Need to hurry the qb if you want to close some of these games out more comfortably.

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100% agree. I think the main reason the Pats struggle to stop teams in big games at the end of halfs/the game is because there isn't enough pressure on the opposing QB.

Marqui said:

100% agree. I think the main reason the Pats struggle to stop teams in big games at the end of halfs/the game is because there isn't enough pressure on the opposing QB.

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Manx has a great eye for talent. Instead of DT first in the draft, I think a guy like Odighizuwa in the first and M. Hardison - DT - Ariz. St in the 3rd. Not sure how good they will be right away. Dominique Easley will prob be our best hope to improve the pass rush next year. Maybe, one of the rooks can help. If Hightower, Collins and Mayo are all healthy. You can bring pressure from Hightower or Collins from areas they will be hard to be identified from.

patsfaninpa said:

We need to get a little more athletic along the defensive line. It's just so hard to cover. If the ball is near the receivers, they can catch it with the gloves they wear now. Need to hurry the qb if you want to close some of these games out more comfortably.

I don't want a pure run-stuffer at dt. I want a 310lb who can play well versus the run. And, RUSH the quarterback a little. I'm thinking one of Davis, Brown or Goldman in Round 1. None will be as good as VW against the run. But, if we can run base 4-3 a little more, we should be tough to run on.

Could we line Mayo and Hightower up where they do in a 4-2-5. Move Collins and Browner around as BB desires. Still could have two corners and a single high safety. Is Collins athletic enough to pull something off like that against run heavy teams?

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1. Thanks for your kind words earlier.
2. I agree about a more complete Prospect at DT rather than a run stuffer. But the same caveat applies to a DT as it does a pass rushing DL - he's not going to be productive immediately which is a problem if Wilfork retires or is cut. I think that's why I want them to go the FA route. I think this especially applies to Jordan Phillips who is so raw. I really do like his upside but I doubt he starts year one.
3. I love the idea of moving Collins around. I think it's getting clear that BB doesn't see him as an edge player but I've been talking about him as a LB/S hybrid player for a few days now and I like that. And yes, I think he's athletic enough to play a Kam Chancellor/Adrian Wilson type role. Perhaps not as an every down SS but depending on matchup etc.
4. we don't have that inside pass rusher aside from Easley which is why I've been pushing the Hardison/Odighizuwa thing. As a team, we're one of the lowest blitzers in the league. Generating pressure with 3 or 4 guys is crucial.
5. We've been running a lot 5-2 recently as a sort of base (credit to @mayoclinic for for seeing that one) which allows us to get 3 DTs inside. Whether that's the new base or has been put in to accommodate Mayo's loss is another matter.
6. I'm not a big fan of the depth at 0 or 1 tech depth at DT in this draft. It's much better at 3 and 5 tech. One guy I think is underrated is Bobby Richardson of Indiana. Also, while Hardison isn't a "heavy" in terms of how he plays yet, he is 311 lbs which is a decent size for him to become someone that can pressure the QB and be effective against the run given some development time.

Gonna be tough to get any free agency help from outside the organization given our cap situation. A few teams have tons of money. They're going to snag the really good players by over-paying them. We have to look for a vet that wants out of a certain team and give it one last shot to win it all.

If we lost VW, but kept Branch and Silega as your one-tech or to use in tandem. That wouldn't be awful. Easley would come in quickly with a decent 1st down stuff. The rook would be in a 3-player rotation with Silega and Branch.

I saw PSU run a defense against Oklahoma's wishbone once that worked pretty good. I'd be curious if it worked near goal-line against a run-heavy read option. You have your 4 man line. Two inside linebackers like we line up in the 4-2-5. But, instead of 5 db's. PSU lined up Shane Conlan behind the two ILB's and beat the qb to the edge if he kept the ball. Even though PSU lost the game. He absolutely manhandled Jamiele Holieway. I think Collins could do that against a Wilson-type qb inside the red zone. Your 4 DL and 2 ILB's are responsible for the rb. He's got the qb. Can get him on either side left or right. Too deep for blockers to get at. Too fast for the qb to beat to the edge.

manxman2601 said:

1. Thanks for your kind words earlier.
2. I agree about a more complete Prospect at DT rather than a run stuffer. But the same caveat applies to a DT as it does a pass rushing DL - he's not going to be productive immediately which is a problem if Wilfork retires or is cut. I think that's why I want them to go the FA route. I think this especially applies to Jordan Phillips who is so raw. I really do like his upside but I doubt he starts year one.
3. I love the idea of moving Collins around. I think it's getting clear that BB doesn't see him as an edge player but I've been talking about him as a LB/S hybrid player for a few days now and I like that. And yes, I think he's athletic enough to play a Kam Chancellor/Adrian Wilson type role. Perhaps not as an every down SS but depending on matchup etc.
4. we don't have that inside pass rusher aside from Easley which is why I've been pushing the Hardison/Odighizuwa thing. As a team, we're one of the lowest blitzers in the league. Generating pressure with 3 or 4 guys is crucial.
5. We've been running a lot 5-2 recently as a sort of base (credit to @mayoclinic for for seeing that one) which allows us to get 3 DTs inside. Whether that's the new base or has been put in to accommodate Mayo's loss is another matter.
6. I'm not a big fan of the depth at 0 or 1 tech depth at DT in this draft. It's much better at 3 and 5 tech. One guy I think is underrated is Bobby Richardson of Indiana. Also, while Hardison isn't a "heavy" in terms of how he plays yet, he is 311 lbs which is a decent size for him to become someone that can pressure the QB and be effective against the run given some development time.

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I think people are getting a little too worried about our cap situation. There's a lot of ways we can free up money, and if done correctly (several players take pay cuts) We will have a ton of space and money to spend..
I think one of the first order of business is trying to convince Wilfork to retire. He has been an amazing player in NE, but his time is up. It would suck to cut him, but it would suck even more to have his 8.9 Million dollar salary on the books, during a FA that is loaded with DT talent.

When I think about that 8.9 million. I think of the ability to sign a universal DT/DE like Jared Odrick. He is one of the most vertical defensive lineman in the league. He can play almost every position on the D-line. Seeing there is so much talent on the market this year, he might be able to be acquired for the 5-8 million a year range. I think he would be a wonderful player to team up with Easley and the rest of the crew. It would allow us to give a lot of different looks on D. Not to mention its always nice stealing a player from a division rival.

Then I see some other players like B.J Raji who has all the physical talent to replace Wilfork. He has never been spectacular in Green bay, but I like to blame that on GB's ability to develop D-lineman. I think his upside on our team for a player with a price in the 2-3 million dollar range, I think it would be silly to not at least give him a offer.

Last if we can't resign Branch for a decent price, maybe we should look in to the recently cut Terrence Cody. The former 350lb, Ravens 2nd round pick, and Nick Saban pipeline player. He was cut by the ravens for some really silly reasons. Well have to wait and see how his charges pan out. If things aren't to bad then he may warrant consideration.

HawaiianPatsfan said:

I think people are getting a little too worried about our cap situation. There's a lot of ways we can free up money, and if done correctly (several players take pay cuts) We will have a ton of space and money to spend..
I think one of the first order of business is trying to convince Wilfork to retire. He has been an amazing player in NE, but his time is up. It would suck to cut him, but it would suck even more to have his 8.9 Million dollar salary on the books, during a FA that is loaded with DT talent.

When I think about that 8.9 million. I think of the ability to sign a universal DT/DE like Jared Odrick. He is one of the most vertical defensive lineman in the league. He can play almost every position on the D-line. Seeing there is so much talent on the market this year, he might be able to be acquired for the 5-8 million a year range. I think he would be a wonderful player to team up with Easley and the rest of the crew. It would allow us to give a lot of different looks on D. Not to mention its always nice stealing a player from a division rival.

Then I see some other players like B.J Raji who has all the physical talent to replace Wilfork. He has never been spectacular in Green bay, but I like to blame that on GB's ability to develop D-lineman. I think his upside on our team for a player with a price in the 2-3 million dollar range, I think it would be silly to not at least give him a offer.

Last if we can't resign Branch for a decent price, maybe we should look in to the recently cut Terrence Cody. The former 350lb, Ravens 2nd round pick, and Nick Saban pipeline player. He was cut by the ravens for some really silly reasons. Well have to wait and see how his charges pan out. If things aren't to bad then he may warrant consideration.

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If they can sign a quality DT and an OG as well as keeping the important FAs then I'm all for that. It would certainly allow more freedom in the draft for more luxury players.

manxman2601 said:

If they can sign a quality DT and an OG as well as keeping the important FAs then I'm all for that. It would certainly allow more freedom in the draft for more luxury players.

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Mike Iupati is the only guard I see worth pursuing in this years FA period. This is why I feel we need to use our first pick as a luxury and simply take the BPA, or trade it away. We still need to come out of the end of the 2nd rounds with a guard regardless of how they achieve that task. This is why I believe FA in the best route for filling our needs at DT. The class is loaded with talent which will keep prices down, and almost every single one of these players is under 27 years of age and just reaching their prime.

After watching & re-watching the SB, including the inspired play of Malcolm Butler and the uninspired play of Arrington & Ryan, I am coming around to the idea of drafting a CB no later than the end of the 4th round if Revis is re-signed, and no later then the end of the 3rd round if he isn't.

captain stone said:

After watching & re-watching the SB, including the inspired play of Malcolm Butler and the uninspired play of Arrington & Ryan, I am coming around to the idea of drafting a CB no later than the end of the 4th round if Revis is re-signed, and no later then the end of the 3rd round if he isn't.

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I don't know if that's necessary, remember we still have Dennard coming back healthy next year.

I think the Pats are set at db. I don't know what was up with Dennard this year (I hope he was in fact injured although maybe he was just practicing poorly), but the end of the Superbowl shows what great flexibility they have in the defensive backfield. Mathews was unexpectedly burning Arrington and Ryan so they switch Browner, a better size matchup, onto him and then remove Arrington and Ryan (who would then have to cover Kearse, a quick, speedy wideout) and replace them with Butler, who can match up better with Kearse's speed. In retrospect, a fantastic move that saved the game.

Both Ryan and Arrington played well throughout the end of the year (probably due to favorable matchups with teams like the Ravens, etc.), but BB had no problem benching them for a perceived better matchup and going with his fifth db in the middle of the Superbowl. That shows outstanding roster depth and flexibility as well as confidence in your roster. If Dennard was in fact injured, then his return should only improve their overall depth and flexibility.

Regarding defense, let's focus our efforts going forward along the d-line, where we have greater difficulty matching the leagues best.

HawaiianPatsfan said:

Mike Iupati is the only guard I see worth pursuing in this years FA period.

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I'm a big fan of Iupati but are we going to be able to afford him with all the cap issues we're going to have just trying to retain this defense?

Snake Eyes said:

I'm a big fan of Iupati but are we going to be able to afford him with all the cap issues we're going to have just trying to retain this defense?

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I'm trying to stick to defense in this thread, but I think they can find o-line help in the draft, just as they did last year with Stork. I'd rather see money for someone like Iaputi spent elsewhere.

Marqui said:

I don't know if that's necessary, remember we still have Dennard coming back healthy next year.

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I hope so, but right now I don't know what to make of him, or what the coaches really think of him.

Marqui said:

I don't know if that's necessary, remember we still have Dennard coming back healthy next year.

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Denard is on the books for 1.5 million next season, with a dead cap hit just over 12k $. Im pretty sure he's gone if he isn't traded

Denard is on the books for 1.5 million next season, with a dead cap hit just over 12k $. Im pretty sure he's gone if he isn't traded

Its not that he isn't a decent player, its about shaving money here and there, so we can retain all of our important pieces, and maybe add a upgrade somewhere via free agency. With the current roster, DB's are no longer a weakness for the team. I still think it would be smart to draft a project CB in this years draft, maybe like Nick Marshall, or possibly even Josh Shaw. Let's See how the pre draft process pans out. This is where I feel you can get extra value out of Revis. He's a technician. Smily the best fundamentally skilled cornerback to ever play the game. His technique is amazing! He at the very top top of the list when you consider fundamentals. Even better then players like Deion. The league is much more complicated these days! Nick Marshall would be smart cause he has all the fundamentals, and was a Quarterback in college. I think he can learn a lot sitting behind Revis. You might hit gold. Or worse case, he can mimic opposing mobile quarterback on on practice squad, if it doesn't work out. He still has value.

HawaiianPatsfan said:

Denard is on the books for 1.5 million next season, with a dead cap hit just over 12k $. Im pretty sure he's gone if he isn't traded

Its not that he isn't a decent player, its about shaving money here and there, so we can retain all of our important pieces, and maybe add a upgrade somewhere via free agency. With the current roster, DB's are no longer a weakness for the team. I still think it would be smart to draft a project CB in this years draft, maybe like Nick Marshall, or possibly even Josh Shaw. Let's See how the pre draft process pans out. This is where I feel you can get extra value out of Revis. He's a technician. Smily the best fundamentally skilled cornerback to ever play the game. His technique is amazing! He at the very top top of the list when you consider fundamentals. Even better then players like Deion. The league is much more complicated these days! Nick Marshall would be smart cause he has all the fundamentals, and was a Quarterback in college. I think he can learn a lot sitting behind Revis. You might hit gold. Or worse case, he can mimic opposing mobile quarterback on on practice squad, if it doesn't work out. He still has value.

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I don't know if dennard would be cut. He had a really down year, but he's a piece that I think BB would rather have as depth, then to just try to save money. When healthy hes worth the contract he has. But if there was an experimental cb to take in the draft I would hope it would be quinten Rollins. He has barely any football experience and he played well in his first season. But I think he played his way out if being a late round pick at the senior bowl.

HawaiianPatsfan said:

Denard is on the books for 1.5 million next season, with a dead cap hit just over 12k $. Im pretty sure he's gone if he isn't traded

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I can see Dennard being traded because of that. I also think Nick Marshall would be a great prospect to develop at that spot.

I'd really like to get to 25 in the draft. The Carolina pick. Would think they want some value for their pick because they should really be drafting higher than they are. 32, Dennard and 6th for 25? have a bunch of pretty good organizations drafting right in front of us; Baltimore, GB, Seattle. Dallas has been drafting well. Would like to get ahead of Indy.

patsfaninpa said:

I can see Dennard being traded because of that. I also think Nick Marshall would be a great prospect to develop at that spot.

I'd really like to get to 25 in the draft. The Carolina pick. Would think they want some value for their pick because they should really be drafting higher than they are. 32, Dennard and 6th for 25? have a bunch of pretty good organizations drafting right in front of us; Baltimore, GB, Seattle. Dallas has been drafting well. Would like to get ahead of Indy.

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That values Dennard as a late third or fourth rounder. I think that's ambitious. If we get back the 7th we forked out for him we'll be doing well I suspect.

patsfaninpa said:

Manx has a great eye for talent. Instead of DT first in the draft, I think a guy like Odighizuwa in the first and M. Hardison - DT - Ariz. St in the 3rd. Not sure how good they will be right away. Dominique Easley will prob be our best hope to improve the pass rush next year. Maybe, one of the rooks can help. If Hightower, Collins and Mayo are all healthy. You can bring pressure from Hightower or Collins from areas they will be hard to be identified from.

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For the past week, I've been thinking a lot about this thought from Brother Pa:

patsfaninpa said:

I'm kind of hoping we're looking at Seattle's model on how to build a defense. Athletes everywhere. I don't really want a Vince Jr type fatty at DT. I'd rather have a good DE like Odighizuwa whom might be able to slide into DT in pass-rushing situations. A la Justin Tuck. Get the bigger run-stuffer with the non-premium pick.

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http://www.patsfans.com/new-england-patriots/messageboard/threads/top-10-dts-in-the-draft.1117034/ (post #4)

BB has started to assemble a group of "interchangeable" elements at EDGE and LB. Chandler Jones, Dont'a Hightower, Rob Ninkovich, Jamie Collins, Akeem Ayers. All can play in space and come off the edge, and all but Jones can play ILB to some extent as well. That gives BB tremendous versatility to mix and match guys and move them around pre- and post- snap. Mike Reiss referred to this as the "interchangeable defense" against Denver:

When considering how the New England Patriots effectively slowed the Denver Broncos' lethal offense in Sunday's convincing 43-21 victory, Rob Ninkovich's critical second-quarter interception provides a nice X's-and-O's snapshot of the plan.

This was all about the "interchangeable defense."

For most of the game, the Patriots played a 4-2-5 nickel that had Ninkovich and Akeem Ayersas hybrid end-of-the-line players. Their job was to work in concert with off-the-line linebackers Jamie Collins and Dont'a Hightower to take away Peyton Manning's go-to play -- the over route paired with a shallow crosser.

To simplify, this is how the defense approached things:

• If Collins or Hightower rushed up the middle -- they showed quite a bit of pre-snap pressure looks over the center in the game -- it was on Ninkovich or Ayers to drop back into coverage in their place.
• If Collins or Hightower backed out into coverage, then Ninkovich and Ayers would play more of the traditional defensive end role.

"You have to change it up," Ninkovich explained. "Having [Hightower] and Jamie, those guys can get inside and rush well on backs and also on guards, and when they do that, you have ends that can drop back and cover. So you're able to switch things up and it's all interchangeable."

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http://espn.go.com/blog/new-england...71510/interchangeable-defense-sparks-patriots

What if, instead of a big fatty in the middle, the Pats had a bunch of uber-athletic, versatile, interchangeable moving parts on the DL? Dominique Easley already falls into this class - a versatile guy who can play anywhere from the 0/1 to the 9 technique. What if, instead of spending a high pick on a wide body run stopper, the Pats invested in day 2 versatile athletic guys who could be moved around and interchanged?

2 guys in particular come to mind:

1. Marcus Hardison, Arizona St. 6' 3 1/8" 311#. Manx has been touting him for months. Highly athletic former QB and JUCO transfer, who had a breakout season this year with 15 TFL and 10 sacks. Reportedly has 4.7 speed, and shows great explosiveness coming around the edge. Played mostly outside as a DE in Arizona St.'s complex attacking defense, but has also played inside, including at the nose. Needs to develop his combat tactics to play inside, but has ridiculous versatility and upside. The following is a nice read:

http://www.footballinsiders.com/marcus-hardisons-versatility-makes-him-a-valuable-commodity/

2. Mario Edwards, Florida St. 6' 3", played anywhere from 294-320# this season. Like Hardison, played mostly outside at end, but may project best inside at the Pros. Jimbo Fisher notes that he can play anywhere from the 9 tech to the nose:

"He can play D-tackle, he can play D-end, he can play a 9-technique, he can play a 7- or a 6-[technique]," Fisher said. "The guy is 305 pounds and can stand still and do back flips in front of you in full pads? I mean, he's athletic."

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http://www.nfl.com/news/story/0ap3000000376929/article/fsus-jimbo-fisher-praises-de-mario-edwards

In a 5-2 base the Pats could have all 3 guys inside, paired with 4 EDGE guys. In sub you would take 1 out and replace him with a DB. In both cases there would be lots of potential to move guys around and create mismatches. All 3 can rush from the outside as well as inside. None are prototypical 2-gap players or run pluggers, but the gain in versatility and pressure would offset that to some extent. Dominique Easley showed nice development this year in terms of his gap control and edge setting ability, so I think that there's a good chance the Pats could coach these guys up. In situations where a premium run-stuffer was needed, the Pats could substitute in someone like Siliga or Branch.

It would take something of an adjustment, and is undoubtedly a bit of a long shot, but it would be a very interesting defense.

I think when we've struggled vs the run it's been one of two things.

1. Our de's did a poor job of setting the edge. That's a technique issue not an athletic one. The 2 Jets games are perfect examples of this. Horrible play from the de's.

2. The zone blocking just gets a hat on a hat. The rb looks for the hole. While the fatties are good at the point of attack. They have struggled getting off the block and don't have the movement skills to make the tackle. Really evident against Baltimore in the playoff game. Teams don't run ISO's and attack a hole any more. With some exceptions. I just feel the desire to get the next VW is like fighting the last war. Not, the next one. Just my .02. I like Hardison and Edwards. I think either one might work in the type of DT I would prefer. I also wouldn't mind a one-trick pony as our 9th DL. A speed rusher who comes in on 3rd down and just tries to turn the corner. Maybe, Michael Buchanan can be that guy. Make the qb move. Hope Easley and a new DT are quick enough to track him down.