Peter King's August 2014 take, and now

Loved WWW before he came here and especially when he was here. Wish him a long & happy life.
Always loved Edelman.
All of my snark aside, I'm good with both. We've been blessed. Let's be thankful.

Brady6 said:

I was 9 when Tippett retired and 1 when Hannah retired so I could really tell you what they were as players.

I'm not diminishing Welker I'm simply saying that if Edelman continues to perform for the remainder of his contract and another year or 2 he could overtake Welker. The drop by Welker was a big drop though and just like Butler will be remembered for what he did do Welker will be remembered for what he didn't do. That's sports.

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You gave the edge to Edelman in a prior post, and now state he "could overtake Welker." Do you mean as a pure receiver, or something else?

And we have been talking about as a receiver generally, not on a single play in a single game. You stated you had no opinion on Tippet because you were presumably born in 1984 and didn't see him play. I am assuming you were old enough to watch the Pats in 2007, because you are comparing Welker to Edelman based on prior years. So are you basing your assessment essentially on the "big drop" like other 'people' I characterize as the unrealistic, jaded fan, or you claiming to compare the two based on their overall performance as receivers? You like statistics, and they just aren't there if you do that at this point.

And I place no limit on what Jules may do for the Pats. If he stays healthy, I expect he will continue to improve and contribute.

Man, I loved Welker when he was here and hated it when he left. But with JE, we have won a SB. And I think we played better as a team. I would not trade the current JE for the best of Welker.

Loved Wes. Was great, now should remove himself from the game - and I hope JE wasn't concussed at the end of the game last week. Those protocols -- we have to say it -- mean more than the ring. Anyway regardless, may JE's melon remain forever hitless forevermore, his bell unrung, amen.

As to the meaning of JE's best vs. Welker's best - he doesn't mean did Welker catch balls all over the field, etc. etc. etc., he means was Welker flawless when he had to be flawless - when there is no next week in the stat book? Cuz Edelman was.

AzorianPats said:

Here's the gist of this whole bull **** argument. Both Welker and Edelman are a product of Brady's greatness. He makes good players into really good/borderline great ones.

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Thanks for clarifying that. That's why BB specifically wanted Welker from Miami after trying to defend him.
Brady does make players better, but given your clarity tell me how Brady did in 2008? I thought he was on IR. Matt Cassell was QB that year, not Brady. And Welker was 2nd in the NFL in receptions. Are you claiming Matt Cassell is the same as Tom Brady?

I agree the comparison/argument is ridiculous between Jules and Welker. But I also believe it is ridiculous to claim the Pats could plug any receiver into that position and they would enjoy similar numbers. It ain't that easy, or anyone playing with Brady would have similar numbers. Hasn't happened yet. QBs throw the ball, and receivers have to get open and catch it. It may look easy to a person not on the field seeing the movement at game speed rather than the relative speed on television, but it is far from it.

Fixit said:

I think we've reached the point where people are starting to exaggerate just how good a guy was. Wes was real good in the slot, probably the best ever in terms of production. But what, exactly, did he do that JE can't? Teleport? Turn invisible?

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Welker could get open faster than anyone in the league, he could do it in small spaces, and he could do it against double teams. He was good enough at it that the Jets would sometimes put Revis on him instead of on the outside receivers.

That's what Welker could do that JE can't. He could do everything in the slot better than everyone else, including Edelman.

Brady6 said:

Every season except for 1 Peyton Manning has produced more than Brady statistically, does that make Manning better than Brady in your opinion?

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The QB has a much wider effect on a game than any other position and is thus measured more on team performance than any other position. Other offensive skill position are generally gauged almost solely on production. So, no I don't think Peyton is better QB than Brady, but I certainly think Welker was a better receiver than Edelman is.

I think there's a legit argument to say Peyton is a better passer than Brady, but not a better QB. For QBs, winning matters.

AzorianPats said:

The amount of people acting like Welker was the most dangerous receiver in the NFL here is pathetic.

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Thus far, you're the only one who has claimed that.

Deus Irae said:

Welker could get open faster than anyone in the league, he could do it in small spaces, and he could do it against double teams. He was good enough at it that the Jets would sometimes put Revis on him instead of on the outside receivers.

That's what Welker could do that JE can't. He could do everything in the slot better than everyone else, including Edelman.

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^this.

I'm not going to waste my time searching, but I guarantee if you went back on this board in 2011, you'd find the exact same posters now saying Edelman is better, calling Welker the best slot man ever. So, now I guess Edelman is the best slot man ever? Riiiiiiiight.

flasox27 said:

What people are overlooking in this comparison is that Brady can make any slot receiver have great stats. Starting with Troy Brown, a clutch player, to WW and now Edelman, they all put up approximately the same numbers of 100 catches and 1000 yards. Edelman has had two such seasons and if he keeps playing with Brady he will match WW. Keep in mind that WW was a good not great player with the Fins before coming here and now is a shadow with the Broncos, hardly the credentials of a HOF player. BB knew his value in the final contract negotiations even if he and his agent didn't.

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Welker was really good at the beginning of his first year in Denver before he started getting concussions. He wasn't the same after those.

Brady6 said:

25% of passes thrown by Tom Brady went to Welker during his tenure. 25% of the offense went through him, he was not just a regular solder.

In my opinion, which comes from decades of playing sports wins/loses are the #1 thing that matters when judging any player. Welker and Edelman if you look at just their first 2 seasons as a primary option in the offense are very similar statistically, so the advantage goes to Edelman because of his having a ring if you ask me.

Posters are considering what Welker did as a member of the Patriots when he was ages 29, 30, 31, and 32 when comparing him to a player who is only age 28. Does that make sense to you? Look at their first 2 seasons as a primary option for the Patriots, compare that, and it is very close, so I give the edge to Edelman because he won a ring.

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So Welker is the worse receiver because we had a terrible secondary in 2011 and Revis/Browner/Dmac in 2014?

Marinlik said:

So Welker is the worse receiver because we had a terrible secondary in 2011 and Revis/Browner/Dmac in 2014?

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You can always make an excuse for a failure, it doesn't change anything though. There are shortcomings and adversity that have to be overcome on every team, every season.

JJDChE said:

The QB has a much wider effect on a game than any other position and is thus measured more on team performance than any other position. Other offensive skill position are generally gauged almost solely on production. So, no I don't think Peyton is better QB than Brady, but I certainly think Welker was a better receiver than Edelman is.

I think there's a legit argument to say Peyton is a better passer than Brady, but not a better QB. For QBs, winning matters.



Thus far, you're the only one who has claimed that.

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So what you're saying is Brady's super bowl wins matter when comparing him to Manning but Edelman's don't matter when comparing him to Welker? Seems rather convenient if you ask me.

MassPats38 said:

You gave the edge to Edelman in a prior post, and now state he "could overtake Welker." Do you mean as a pure receiver, or something else?

And we have been talking about as a receiver generally, not on a single play in a single game. You stated you had no opinion on Tippet because you were presumably born in 1984 and didn't see him play. I am assuming you were old enough to watch the Pats in 2007, because you are comparing Welker to Edelman based on prior years. So are you basing your assessment essentially on the "big drop" like other 'people' I characterize as the unrealistic, jaded fan, or you claiming to compare the two based on their overall performance as receivers? You like statistics, and they just aren't there if you do that at this point.

And I place no limit on what Jules may do for the Pats. If he stays healthy, I expect he will continue to improve and contribute.

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I gave the edge to Edelman for his first 2 seasons in a primary role compared to Welker's first 2 seasons in a primary role. I think that Edelman has been more important and did more so this team could 2 AFC championship games and win 1 super bowl than Welker was to the 2007 and 2008 teams. Edelman's 2013 and 2014, and Welker's 2007 and 2008 seasons are the only seasons I feel are even close to an apples for apples comparison right now.

Bruins29 said:

Absolutely!!! Take Jim Brown VS Stephen Ridely? I dont know because I never saw Brown play.

Laughable

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I am not going to offer a definitive opinion on a player I never saw play a down of football. I'm not a follower who just goes with the popular opinion so I fit in with the masses. If you want to jump off a bridge that you have never seen before just because everyone else is doing it be my guest. I'm not an insecure puppet though so you won't catch me doing it.

Brady6 said:

So what you're saying is Brady's super bowl wins matter when comparing him to Manning but Edelman's don't matter when comparing him to Welker?

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Correct. QBs are judged on team performance. WRs and other skill positions, generally, are not. Since you're a football fan I figure you know and accept this fact already but are conveniently playing dumb in this case.

Brady6 said:

I am not going to offer a definitive opinion on a player I never saw play a down of football. I'm not a follower who just goes with the popular opinion so I fit in with the masses. If you want to jump off a bridge that you have never seen before just because everyone else is doing it be my guest. I'm not an insecure puppet though so you won't catch me doing it.

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So anyone who says brown was the best or one of the best is an insecure puppet. Ahhh. I see. Keep tap dancin Sammy Davis jr

Coming from someone who has regularly bragged that they had the most likes in a message board I will take that compliment from you

JJDChE said:

Correct. QBs are judged on team performance. WRs and other skill positions, generally, are not. Since you're a football fan I figure you know and accept this fact already but are conveniently playing dumb in this case.

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He sets the rules that conveniently back has viewpoint or in some cases jihad

Bruins29 said:

So anyone who says brown was the best or one of the best is an insecure puppet. Ahhh. I see. Keep tap dancin Sammy Davis jr

Coming from someone who has regularly bragged that they had the most likes in a message board I will take that compliment from you

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Anybody who never saw Brown play in their life and formed their opinion based on what others have said is following the lead of others. If you want to twist up my words to suggest something else that is fine but your just giving the perception that you do not have very good reading and comprehension skills. If you want to give the perception as I said feel free.

As far as the likes on the board comment if you want to live in the past once again be my guest. It does not bother me, if people would rather get defensive and aggressive when other posters disagree with them I feel badly for them that they are that easily affected by something so small.

If you want me to offer opinions on players that I have seen play I will but I don't form decisive opinions based on stats and articles on the Internet, sorry!

Brady6 said:

Anybody who never saw Brown play in their life and formed their opinion based on what others have said is following the lead of others. If you want to twist up my words to suggest something else that is fine but your just giving the perception that you do not have very good reading and comprehension skills. If you want to give the perception as I said feel free.

As far as the likes on the board comment if you want to live in the past once again be my guest. It does not bother me, if people would rather get defensive and aggressive when other posters disagree with them I feel badly for them that they are that easily affected by something so small.

If you want me to offer opinions on players that I have seen play I will but I don't form decisive opinions based on stats and articles on the Internet, sorry!

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JJDChE said:

Correct. QBs are judged on team performance. WRs and other skill positions, generally, are not. Since you're a football fan I figure you know and accept this fact already but are conveniently playing dumb in this case.

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No that isn't how it works in my opinion. I think the purpose/goal of playing a game for every player is to win so why the hell would I not judge a player on whether or not he is doing that. All the hype Malcolm Butler has received is based on him making the SB winning interception, as I said @Bruins29 has made the argument to retain Amendola in another thread based on his playoff performance and it helping us win a SB. Honestly it just looks to me like you guys don't know how you judge a player and just pick and choose what to base it on by whatever gives your opinion the most strength at the time.