Investigators to consult Columbia Univ physicist

PatsWickedPissah · Jan 28, 2015

Who besides me is getting off on GEEK WARS!!!

Observer · Jan 28, 2015

Never heard of him but I like Prof. Pritchard.

Twentytothree · Jan 28, 2015

Observer said:
Never heard of him but I like Prof. Pritchard.

Pritchard is a great guy and a fantastic physicist.

Upon further thought, I'm not worried about Columbia providing the consulting on the science side. One way to read this is that the NFL would like to bury the whole thing as a "natural phenomenon", but can't do so based on some Youtube videos put up by random people (even though most of them capture the essence of the matter well). If on the other hand a study from Columbia shows that no "tampering" is needed to explain the various measurements, they can point to that and tell everyone: nothing to see here, move on. I can't imagine that anyone at Columbia would lend their name/reputation to a report that misrepresents the basic science/experiments.

Bobsyouruncle · Jan 28, 2015

I wouldn't get too excited.

Based on what I'm reading at this point. Depending on how long between the prep and ref measurements will change. The first ball to the last checked may be close to 1.0 psi. Did anyone time that?

Then depending on how wet the balls are. When they took the measurements did they check which balls were wet. Did they check at halftime inside.

The NFL did not record anything, some balls at an unknown temperature were whatever psi. The only conclusion that I think any good scientist good come up with, is that there's not enough data. Could have been tampering under these circumstances where the ball was dry, or not hot at the ref check. Could have been natural if it was wet or hot.

And a indeterminate conclusion, which this almost certainly will be, will be interpreted as- they got away with it. Not enough evidence. They won't be exonerated.

n6249c · Jan 28, 2015

Blackluck said:
I wonder if it will be peer reviewed.

I'll bet it gets written up and submitted, probably published in a peer reviewed journal.

n6249c · Jan 28, 2015

mosi said:
The most important thing is to test everything experimentally! Do all the math you want but test it experimentally!

And make sure the experiments replicate all details as accurately as possible!

So, two samples, prepare both as the Patriots and Colts did (respectively), including rubbing, tack cloth, anything else that can be identified. Control for temperature, wetness, first half duration.

A good study will include analysis of uncontrolled variables, eg the data that was not recorded at game time, such as degree of wetness for each ball, internal temperatures, etc.

kennyb · Jan 28, 2015

They'd start with a simple calculation that says the balls would lose 1.2 psi.

I would bet the refs measured them outside. You think they brought them inside let them warm up for half an hour and pressure checked them?

If the balls were down 1.5 psi, it's hard to believe that they would have let .25 psi out. Which is what they must have done says weather and wetness effects.

.25 psi is removing less than 1% of the air in a ball. Sounds a little crazy.

Jlaff · Jan 28, 2015

Dr Pain said:
PBPF contacted the Columbia Professor about this and seems to have received a positive response. He will look at the HeadSmary video etc.. he said.

This forum - a thorn in Goodell's (or Kensil's) side!

Jlaff · Jan 28, 2015

I wonder how much consultation with these professors will involve finding ways of never letting this PSI fluctuation happen again.

Pats always had next November in their back pocket to disprove these allegations further (take a ball from any cold weather game and gauge it).

juny · Jan 28, 2015

Jlaff said:
I wonder how much consultation with these professors will involve finding ways of never letting this PSI fluctation happen again.

Pats always had next November in their back pocket to disprove these allegations further (take a ball from any cold weather game and guage it).

They should get the network to film the ball pressure before it goes outside and then film ball pressure at half. Too bad way too many people would think bill is a sorcerer at that point as science goes over their head

wolverinejoe80 · Jan 28, 2015

physicist from a 2nd rate institution? not impressed.

kennyb · Jan 29, 2015

wolverinejoe80 said:
physicist from a 2nd rate institution? not impressed.

You need mit or caltech to do freshman physics.

Jim Colclough fan · Jan 29, 2015

kennyb said:
You need mit or caltech to do freshman physics.

My hope is Kraft would have an independent study on this subject with one of these two schools while the NFL conducts theirs with Columbia. Don't trust this process, too many personal agendas.

Mr. Kraft needs to win this PR war after the Super Bowl

nowayback · Jan 29, 2015

That professor Zjac is going to have a busy day tomorrow answering emails and such.

Bobsyouruncle · Jan 29, 2015

What are they going to consult on? At this point it's a complete **** show.

Investigator: Hi, I'm from the NFL office of rules, regulations and blackmagicarry. Can you tell us if 12 footballs were deflated by a person?

Professor: Sure what were the starting pressures.

Investigator: Between 12.5 and 13.5, probably.

Professor: Okay, a little tougher with just a range, but as long as you tracked where each ball ended up I might be able to get a ball park figure.

Investigator: Oh yeah, got that, they ended up at less than 12.5

Professor: Exactly how much less?

Investigator: Some more than others, hard to say- didn't write it down.

Professor- So, you want me to tell you if a ball changing pressure from one unknown amount to a different unknown amount is tampering? How could I possibly say without knowing how much each ball changed?

Investigator: Bill Nye can. Look, is it possible that a ball with less air than it started with could have been tampered with or not?

Professor: Well, of course. It's definitely possible, but why assume that? It's even more possible the atmosphere lowered the pressure. You need numbers to say anything. It's possible we could get hit by an asteroid tomorrow but I have no evidence to think it's true.

The next day: The NFL has released its investigation. The Columbia Physics department has stated that based on the evidence they've seen, tampering is "Definitely Possible."

JJC · Jan 29, 2015

Jim Colclough fan said:
My hope is Kraft would have an independent study on this subject with one of these two schools while the NFL conducts theirs with Columbia. Don't trust this process, too many personal agendas.

Mr. Kraft needs to win this PR war after the Super Bowl

Kraft is a big donor to Columbia. The football field is named for him, though that's an embarrassment, since they have been 0-20 over the last two years! There is also a Jewish student center named for him.

I'm not saying that he can influence anything, but when the science supports what actually happened naturally, there will be more accusations of conspiracy and cheating.

I wonder if this is exactly why the NFL chose Columbia. And they should talk to the Mechanical Engineering department, not the Physics department. This is a thermodynamics and fluids problem.

But I was happy to see that they have physics professors that speak English now. During my four semesters of physics there, it was a second language for the professors and TA's. I did get good at understanding Greek, Chinese, Korean, and other accents though!

Observer · Jan 30, 2015

Bobsyouruncle said:
What are they going to consult on? At this point it's a complete **** show.

Investigator: Hi, I'm from the NFL office of rules, regulations and blackmagicarry. Can you tell us if 12 footballs were deflated by a person?

Professor: Sure what were the starting pressures.

Investigator: Between 12.5 and 13.5, probably.

Professor: Okay, a little tougher with just a range, but as long as you tracked where each ball ended up I might be able to get a ball park figure.

Investigator: Oh yeah, got that, they ended up at less than 12.5

Professor: Exactly how much less?

Investigator: Some more than others, hard to say- didn't write it down.

Professor- So, you want me to tell you if a ball changing pressure from one unknown amount to a different unknown amount is tampering? How could I possibly say without knowing how much each ball changed?

Investigator: Bill Nye can. Look, is it possible that a ball with less air than it started with could have been tampered with or not?

Professor: Well, of course. It's definitely possible, but why assume that? It's even more possible the atmosphere lowered the pressure. You need numbers to say anything. It's possible we could get hit by an asteroid tomorrow but I have no evidence to think it's true.

The next day: The NFL has released its investigation. The Columbia Physics department has stated that based on the evidence they've seen, tampering is "Definitely Possible."

This would be funny if not true. A nuclear physics prof at MIT told me once that he never talked to reporters because he did once and they completely changed his words despite his insistence otherwise. He had to call up the MIT lawyers who then had to call the newspaper and threaten them that they would be blacklisted in order to prevent the article from getting published.

Investigators to consult Columbia Univ physicist

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