Twitter report: NFL investigation is more about NFL Officials, not Pats (updated)

Fixit said:

Sup, stay with me here. Knowing the pre-game psi would be nice in determining how much the pressure dropped. It would also help to justify the suspicion that the balls were tampered with in the first place.

But it's not necessary to either hang or exonerate the Pats. Either the investigators have the evidence to prove that the balls were tampered with, or they don't. The pre-game numbers won't change a thing if someone is on video tampering.

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That's where we disagree.

I think they are attempting to figure out what happened, why it happened, and how they can prevent it from happening again.

You think this is just all about the N.England Patriots. I disagree. We'll have to wait to see who's closer to being correct.

supafly said:

This certainly makes a strong suggestion that they had a good idea as to what the pressure was ahead of the game. Otherwise, I can't imagine that there could even be much of an investigation.

We are talking about specific scientific PSI measurements, right? How can there be no baseline measurements pre-game to compare, if they are going to suggest someone may have cheated?

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Again, all they have to do is state what pressures they measured for the Pats game balls and the Colts game balls 2 hours and 15 minutes before the game. With all the "league sources" providing so much information about the balls, I find it a little curious that these numbers haven't been mentioned except by Bill Belichick who stated that the Pats inflate theirs to 12.5 and asked the ref to use 12.5 psi as the target inflation for the Pats' balls.

The league either provides the starting inflation pressures or they don't. Continued lawyerese statements, like the convoluted tense mumbo jumbo in Friday's statement, will tell me they never measured them.

Belichick has put the ball in their court. He has laid out in great detail exactly what the Pats did to prepare the game balls. At this point, the NFL has to prove (not suspect, but prove) that he is lying.

Fixit said:

Okay, worst-case scenario: They have video of a ballboy needling the balls. But they never actually measured or documented the pre-game psi. Which do you think supersedes the other when it comes to determining guilt and punishment?

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I thought we were kind of past that at this point.

Obviously, they could've looked at different angles of tape and solved that question on day one.

This is much bigger than that at this point in time.

kennyb said:

If they can't prove tampering and it seems they can't as it doesn't take very long to review tape they could still say the balls were submitted under pressurized. I don't think they were though if they measured 11psi at the half.

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If the league says that they were submitted under-pressurized, the Pats are of the hook and the refs are on it. Same was with the pre-game psi. If it was measured and documented, potential Pats problem. If not, ref problem.

Okay, fun talking here, but I gotta get back to writing.

Fixit said:

Okay, worst-case scenario: They have video of a ballboy needling the balls. But they never actually measured or documented the pre-game psi. Which do you think supersedes the other when it comes to determining guilt and punishment?

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If they had said video it would be all over the news. It's preposterous to think the pats would trust a ball boy to accurately guage how much pressure to let out. Suppose he did the same ball two or three times by accident. There are twelve balls. Then they're going to trust him to keep his mouth shut? And hope they don't get caught?
If the story about 11 psi is right then it proves air wasn't let out.

kennyb said:

If they can't prove tampering and it seems they can't as it doesn't take very long to review tape they could still say the balls were submitted under pressurized. I don't think they were though if they measured 11psi at the half.

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There's nothing in the rules that requires the teams to provide game balls inflated to the proper pressure. They could turn in balls dead flat. The rules specifically state:

The Referee shall be the sole judge as to whether all balls offered for play comply with these specifications. A pump is to be furnished by the home club, and the balls shall remain under the supervision of the Referee until they are delivered to the ball attendant just prior to the start of the game.

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libra957 said:

The refs denying they failed to check the ball is no different than the pat denying they tampered with them.

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Actually it is a bit different.

Tthe balls are given to the refs, who supposedly check them and they're then taken to the field with a league official guarding them. So, if the Pats tampered with them they'd need the refs help but the refs don't need the Pats help to neglect their job duties.

Sharks of Vegas just tweeted "Mike Kensil, remember that name guys......."

Fixit said:

Okay, worst-case scenario: They have video of a ballboy needling the balls. But they never actually measured or documented the pre-game psi. Which do you think supersedes the other when it comes to determining guilt and punishment?

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For which team?

The ball the Colts intercepted came in one pound lower than the Pats ball per some reports.

supafly said:

As of now, the NFL said on Friday that: "The investigation began based on information that suggested that the game balls used by the New England Patriots were not properly inflated to levels required by the playing rules, specifically Playing Rule 2, Section 1, which requires that the ball be inflated to between 12.5 and 13.5 pounds per square inch. Prior to the game, the game officials inspect the footballs to be used by each team and confirm that this standard is satisfied, which was done before last Sunday’s game."

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I posted this in another thread, but the "inspect" language is very vague. If they measured with a gauge to establish a baseline psi, why not be more specific. I think that they can't make the claim.

hwc said:

Again, all they have to do is state what pressures they measured for the Pats game balls and the Colts game balls 2 hours and 15 minutes before the game. With all the "league sources" providing so much information about the balls, I find it a little curious that these numbers haven't been mentioned except by Bill Belichick who stated that the Pats inflate theirs to 12.5 and asked the ref to use 12.5 psi as the target inflation for the Pats' balls.

The league either provides the starting inflation pressures or they don't. Continued lawyerese statements, like the convoluted tense mumbo jumbo in Friday's statement, will tell me they never measured them.

Belichick has put the ball in their court. He has laid out in great detail exactly what the Pats did to prepare the game balls. At this point, the NFL has to prove (not suspect, but prove) that he is lying.

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Again, they've already confirmed that the balls were good by the refs prior to the game starting. Do they have official, scientific measurements? No. But they are going to claim that they inspected the balls, which also includes measuring them with a pressure gauge.

No one is going to suddenly admit that the refs didn't do their jobs, which include measuring the pressure of the balls. Otherwise, how do they know that they didn't start off a bit underinflated?

I was pretty sure the Pats did it on Wednesday and Thursday but some of the reports Friday and Saturday (including BB's press conference which was a rare double down for him) I am not so sure anymore.

At this point I am in wait in see mode for more facts to come out.

Fixit said:

But it's not necessary to either hang or exonerate the Pats. Either the investigators have the evidence to prove that the balls were tampered with, or they don't. The pre-game numbers won't change a thing if someone is on video tampering.

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I'll bet my right nut....heck both nuts that they have jack and sh*t. Which is why Belichick went on the attack.

kennyb said:

There are twelve balls.

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Divided between ball boys on both sidelines so the ref can get a ball from either side of the field. One of the ball boys would have had to do the nefarious deed in the middle of the Colts' bench. It's preposterous.

The NFL was completely incompetent with this investigation. Which would have been OK if they hadn't put out a string of leaks from "league sources" to convict the Patriots. Now there are LOT of questions league sources are going to have to answer.

supafly said:

In my opinion, I would expect them to have measured the pressure of the footballs prior to the game to make sure that they weren't already below the 12.5--13.5 standard.

How can you know where to even start to place blame or look to make improvements if you don't know who did their jobs and who didn't?

As I said, good luck with their investigation if that's the case.

As of now, the NFL said on Friday that: "The investigation began based on information that suggested that the game balls used by the New England Patriots were not properly inflated to levels required by the playing rules, specifically Playing Rule 2, Section 1, which requires that the ball be inflated to between 12.5 and 13.5 pounds per square inch. Prior to the game, the game officials inspect the footballs to be used by each team and confirm that this standard is satisfied, which was done before last Sunday’s game."

This certainly makes a strong suggestion that they had a good idea as to what the pressure was ahead of the game. Otherwise, I can't imagine that there could even be much of an investigation.

We are talking about specific scientific PSI measurements, right? How can there be no baseline measurements pre-game to compare, if they are going to suggest someone may have cheated?

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RECORDS
They probably "measured" the balls although they may not have but let's say they did. All that the rules require is that the balls were @ or above 12.5 and below 13.6. Nothing for them to compare to. It's a football game not a lab.

NMPatsFan said:

I'll bet my right nut....heck both nuts that they have jack and sh*t. Which is why Belichick went on the attack.

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I agree a zillion percent, minus the nut bets.

Jackson 2 said:

Don't worry about it. I'm as old as dirt and every time I'm clicking around and hit "Fast Times at Ridgemont High" I watch until the end.

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I was just relating that movie to this scenario today! I was saying how they trashed Forest Whittaker's (the big football player at the high school) car and made it look like fans of the opposing team in the upcoming big game did it as a prank. Forrest Whittaker's character demolishes the other team, sacking the quarterback on every play he was so mad. I was saying how I hope this all being accused of cheating bullcrap would have the same effect on our team.

supafly said:

We really don't know one way or another what's real and what isn't---but as of today, the NFL has definitely made a strong suggestion that they knew for a fact the balls were good ahead of the game one way or another.

Maybe we find in the coming days how wrong they are/were? Or maybe we find that it's all on the refs after all?

If that is the case, then the investigation is one hundred percent flawed in every way, and therefore should be dismissed immediately.

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Yeah you would think they would know, but given how the story is fading fast, stories being pulled, NFL hasn't talked to Tom, This is really odd. If it was a sting they should've measured, but then were the refs informed prior?

If they had something you'd know.

The fact that the balls were 11psi proves that they weren't tampered with and that they were 12.5. If true.

I don't think the problem is they don't have a baseline at the starting point - they very well could have measured the footballs properly two hours before the game in their locker room. The problem is there is no baseline as to what would an acceptable pressure be at halftime. Is there any data, guidance, precedent, etc., on that? From what I have read so far (and I could be wrong), the NFL cannot say with certainty what happens to football pressure after the time they are inspected pre-game. I would guess a random sampling of balls at halftime throughout the season in various stadiums, weather and times of year would give a surprising variance. So the Patriots are being held to an impossible standard - like being charged for speeding but they don't know what the speed limit was supposed to be.

Just for the record, I don't think the NFL has said, either, that anybody did anything wrong. I'm not sure if it was they who made a big deal about this. If not for all this publicity, maybe they would have just reinflated the balls at halftime, looked into later if there was any hanky panky, and levy a fine or not depending on what the investigation showed. They do these reviews and levy fines all the time.