Twitter report: NFL investigation is more about NFL Officials, not Pats (updated)

Supra:

I think this thing got away from the NFL before they even stopped to ask if anybody had even measured the balls before the game. The "league sources" that drove this whole thing in the first days were clearly attempting to make the Patriots look as bad as they possibly could.

Belichick eff'd them over with his press conference Saturday. Now the ball is in their court.

supafly said:

In my dreams, this too is what I see.

In reality, I am a bit more skeptical to think that they can have an established law firm, a forensics investigation team, and a former FBI official running an investigation with NOTHING TO COMPARE TO.

Does that really make a lot of sense to you? Honestly? Or are you just "hoping" this is what happened.

How can you have an investigation with no baseline numbers to compare to? It would be impossible. Just my opinion.

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They don't need a documented starting point, and it's almost a sure thing that they don't have one, otherwise they would have stated it long before now, unless they're absolutely incompetent.

They're not investigating the pressure drop. They know that the balls were under reg when they were measured at halftime. They brought in all of the investigators to determine if the Pats tampered with the balls post inspection.

Don't confuse the real issue with the one that doesn't matter.

BradyFTW! said:

Sharks of Vegas said that the Pats would be exonerated, and they expected it to happen over the weekend, but they couldn't be certain of exactly when because the NFL was still trying to delay in hopes of finding something.

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Actually, they changed their story the next day after the NFL made its official announcement on Friday.

On Friday, Sharks of Vegas starting claiming that they stand by their source, yet "question the timeline" for which they believe that will happen.

Fixit said:

They don't need a documented starting point, and it's almost a sure thing that they don't have one, otherwise they would have stated it long before now, unless they're absolutely incompetent.

They're not investigating the pressure drop. They know that the balls were under reg when they were measured at halftime. They brought in all of the investigators to determine if the Pats tampered with the balls post inspection.

Don't confuse the real issue with the one that doesn't matter.

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In the real world, baseline measurements are very important. An investigation or research based process can automatically be thrown out the window once the baseline measurements (comparison) are compromised in any way.

How can they claim the balls were underinflated, which they clearly claim as recently as Friday, if they don't know what the balls started out at? Just because they haven't released that info in their extremely brief comment on Friday doesn't necessarily mean it doesn't exist.

As far as "confusing the real issue" etc--I think there are a lot of assumptions and personal opinions getting in the way, mine + yours included. The truth is that we have absolutely no idea what is true and what isn't.

supafly said:

Actually, they changed their story the next day after the NFL made its official announcement on Friday.

On Friday, Sharks of Vegas starting claiming that they stand by their source, yet "question the timeline" for which they believe will happen.

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They never said they expected the announcement on Friday. Here's the tweet:

https://mobile.twitter.com/SharksOfVegas/status/558482694590726144

On Thursday, they said it was expected over the weekend, and then backtracked from that.

Fixit said:

They brought in all of the investigators to determine if the Pats tampered with the balls post inspection.

Don't confuse the real issue with the one that doesn't matter.

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Of course it matters. You can't prove that somebody tampered with the balls unless you can establish that the balls were tampered with in the first place. Frankly, if the balls started out at 12.5 psi and measured 11.5 at halftime in those weather conditions, that would be a pretty strong indication that the balls were NOT tampered with.

Has anyone stopped to think about how little 1 psi is? I use an electric pump with a gauge and auto shutoff on my tires and it's really hard to get them within 1 psi on my digital pressure gauge.

BradyFTW! said:

They never said they expected the announcement on Friday. Here's the tweet:

https://mobile.twitter.com/SharksOfVegas/status/558482694590726144

On Thursday, they said it was expected over the weekend, before backtracking from that later.

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I realize that.

I'm saying that they backtracked on their original statement of "over the weekend" on Friday, which came after the NFL's announcement.


In other words, they tried to change their story after the NFL made their comments on Friday afternoon.

EDIT: I'm not saying that they'll be wrong. I have no idea. I'm just saying that as of today, they certainly haven't been proven to be correct, as the OP suggested. If anything, it's been the opposite.

hwc said:

Of course it matters. You can't prove that somebody tampered with the balls unless you can establish that the balls were tampered with in the first place.

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I'm pretty sure you can if you have someone on video tampering with the balls. Which, once again, is the only thing that matters.

If the psi was good pre-game, and low at the half, we've already established beyond a shadow of a doubt that can be attributed to weather. The investigators know this. The NFL knows this. They need to prove whether or not that drop can be attributed to something else, i.e. tampering.

Conversely, if the pre-game pressure is unknown, but low at the half, and the refs just say that they okayed the balls pre-game, same deal. To hammer New England, they only need to prove that the balls were tampered with, not the extent of the tampering.

What the psi was pre-game would be nice of us to know, but it's just not relevant to what they're actually looking for. They're not reviewing hours of video and conducting interviews just to confirm that it was raining. Knowing or not knowing the pre-game psi ain't saving anyone if they're sticking a needle in a ball on video.

The NFL could have squashed this when it first came out, citing that 1-2 PSI isn't a big deal. The NFL chose not to squash it, and fueled the media's fire with the vague nature of it's press release. **** the NFL. They deserve every bit of backlash they're gonna get from this.

supafly said:

In the real world, baseline measurements are very important. An investigation or research based process can automatically be thrown out the window once the baseline measurements (comparison) are compromised in any way.

How can they claim the balls were underinflated, which they clearly claim as recently as Friday, if they don't know what the balls started out at? Just because they haven't released that info in their extremely brief comment on Friday doesn't necessarily mean it doesn't exist.

As far as "confusing the real issue" etc--I think there are a lot of assumptions and personal opinions getting in the way, mine + yours included. The truth is that we have absolutely no idea what is true and what isn't.

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"How can they claim the balls were underinflated, which they clearly claim as recently as Friday, if they don't know what the balls started out at?"
Huh? They measured the balls at halftime and found them below the 12.5 minimum. They don't need to know what they were initially to do this. Am I missing what you're saying?

As to baseline measurement RECORDS. I bet there are none. This is not an Engineering 102 lab project. It's a football game.

PatsWickedPissah said:

"How can they claim the balls were underinflated, which they clearly claim as recently as Friday, if they don't know what the balls started out at?"
Huh? They measured the balls at halftime and found them below the 12.5 minimum. They don't need to know what they were initially to do this. Am I missing what you're saying?

As to baseline measurement RECORDS. I bet there are none. This is not an Engineering 102 lab project. It's a football game.

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In my opinion, I would expect them to have measured the pressure of the footballs prior to the game to make sure that they weren't already below the 12.5--13.5 standard.

How can you know where to even start to place blame or look to make improvements if you don't know who did their jobs and who didn't?

As I said, good luck with their investigation if that's the case.

As of now, the NFL said on Friday that: "The investigation began based on information that suggested that the game balls used by the New England Patriots were not properly inflated to levels required by the playing rules, specifically Playing Rule 2, Section 1, which requires that the ball be inflated to between 12.5 and 13.5 pounds per square inch. Prior to the game, the game officials inspect the footballs to be used by each team and confirm that this standard is satisfied, which was done before last Sunday’s game."

This certainly makes a strong suggestion that they had a good idea as to what the pressure was ahead of the game. Otherwise, I can't imagine that there could even be much of an investigation.

We are talking about specific scientific PSI measurements, right? How can there be no baseline measurements pre-game to compare, if they are going to suggest someone may have cheated?

supafly said:

I realize that.

I'm saying that they backtracked on their original statement of "over the weekend" on Friday, which came after the NFL's announcement.


In other words, they tried to change their story after the NFL made their comments on Friday afternoon.

EDIT: I'm not saying that they'll be wrong. I have no idea. I'm just saying that as of today, they certainly haven't been proven to be correct, as the OP suggested. If anything, it's been the opposite.

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Oh yeah, none of these random Twitter feeds should be taken as gospel by any stretch, just clarifying that a Friday exoneration was never projected.

They've already checked the tape of the ball boys from every angle and camera. There's nothing there or they'd announce it.

I think when it first broke they assumed someone let the air out. Lower pressure means it must be that. Then they heard from some scientists who explained pv=nrt to them. So now they're stuck. If 1.0 to 1.5 was the pressure loss then that's exactly what you'd expect.

Not only is there no evidence of tampering, there's perfect evidence of no tampering.

If they drag this out longer than Tuesday it's a crime.

kennyb said:

They've already checked the tape of the ball boys from every angle and camera. There's nothing there or they'd announce it.

I think when it first broke they assumed someone let the air out. Lower pressure means it must be that. Then they heard from some scientists who explained pv=nrt to them. So now they're stuck. If 1.0 to 1.5 was the pressure loss then that's exactly what you'd expect.

Not only is there no evidence of tampering, there's perfect evidence of no tampering.

If they drag this out longer than Tuesday it's a crime.

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I guess you missed the latest update with Brady saying he's yet to talk to the league and doesn't except to until after the year.

Fixit said:

I'm pretty sure you can if you have someone on video tampering with the balls. Which, once again, is the only thing that matters.

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It's certainly not "the only thing that matters" whatsoever.

People are going to want answers as to why the balls were underinflated.

They are going to have to have some idea as to why that occurred, and what they can do to prevent that from happening in the future.

That can't be done until they know how much the pressure dropped.

There probably are no records but I bet they were measured. Just ask the ref what they were. And ask them what sideline measurements were.

supafly said:

In my opinion, I would expect them to have measured the pressure of the footballs prior to the game to make sure that they weren't already below the 12.5--13.5 standard.

How can you know where to even start to place blame or look to make improvements if you don't know who did their jobs and who didn't?

As I said, good luck with their investigation if that's the case.

As of now, the NFL said on Friday that: "The investigation began based on information that suggested that the game balls used by the New England Patriots were not properly inflated to levels required by the playing rules, specifically Playing Rule 2, Section 1, which requires that the ball be inflated to between 12.5 and 13.5 pounds per square inch. Prior to the game, the game officials inspect the footballs to be used by each team and confirm that this standard is satisfied, which was done before last Sunday’s game."

This certainly makes a strong suggestion that they had a good idea as to what the pressure was ahead of the game. Otherwise, I can't imagine that there could even be much of an investigation.

We are talking about specific scientific PSI measurements, right? How can there be no baseline measurements pre-game to compare, if they are going to suggest someone may have cheated?

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Sup, stay with me here. Knowing the pre-game psi would be nice in determining how much the pressure dropped. It would also help to justify the suspicion that the balls were tampered with in the first place.

But it's not necessary to either hang or exonerate the Pats. Either the investigators have the evidence to prove that the balls were tampered with, or they don't. The pre-game numbers won't change a thing if someone is on video tampering.

BradyToAmendola said:

I guess you missed the latest update with Brady saying he's yet to talk to the league and doesn't except to until after the year.

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True. They shouldn't need to talk to him. And that was Thursday I think. Maybe they talked to him Friday or saturday. An nfl guy said they were going to wrap it up in 3 or 4 days sometime last week I think.

supafly said:

It's certainly not "the only thing that matters" whatsoever.

People are going to want answers as to why the balls were underinflated.

They are going to have to have some idea as to why that occurred, and what they can do to prevent that from happening in the future.

That can't be done until they know how much the pressure dropped.

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Okay, worst-case scenario: They have video of a ballboy needling the balls. But they never actually measured or documented the pre-game psi. Which do you think supersedes the other when it comes to determining guilt and punishment?

If they can't prove tampering and it seems they can't as it doesn't take very long to review tape they could still say the balls were submitted under pressurized. I don't think they were though if they measured 11psi at the half.