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Pats should dump Samuel


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What's your plan, Einstein? Pay him his ransom money or endure his *****ing and moaning the whole season while he waits until week 10 to show up?

Well, first off, Samuel won't hold out. He'd be leaving too much money on the table. That 7.79 million is guaranteed unless he doesn't show up. Its highly unlikely that he'll leave 5 million on the table just to send a message.

Next, you don't have a clue what Samuel is looking for. Where the hell do you get this 10 M a year average garbage? Clements isn't getting that.

As for giving Samuel 15 million guaranteed? Sure. Why not. There are different ways to GUARANTEE money. It doesn't all have to be signing bonus.

I wish we could trade you, McBee, because your *****ing and moaning is worse than any player that the Pats have had since Steve Martin was on the team.
 
Just as MoLewisRocks can talk about the ritual dance of free agency, we can talk about the ritual dance of threads on free agency...

Any given thread is like a little environment... just as the absence of large herd fauna on some islands allowed giant birds to fill the niche, so too someone will arise to fill any missing niche on a thread. I'm going to fill the "waaaah giving in to Samuel sends the wrong message" niche. To anybody who's already filled it on this thread, my apologies for not getting there first. It's historically been a big niche though, so hey, just welcome me to the herd...

Right. You guys know the numbers (sort of.) We like a big group of players between a million or two bucks and five or so million... then there's (of course) another big group at cheap pay (early in their careers, and backups.) Then there is "The Club", which is getting paid big bucks. "The Club" historically has expanded as we go... Brady moves up to Law's place in the salary cap hierarchy... Seymour (roughly) moves up to Brady's old place... but now we've got Colvin edging up into the higher cap-dollar territory, and AD starting out there. Brady's hit peaks next year at a whopping $14M. And yeah, we have the D-Lineman contracts to deal with too.

So in the midst of all that - the question of what Samuel is worth becomes a question of what he actually brings to the table.

He thinks he brings a presence worthy of "the club." I think he brings a presence in the "good not great" category, regardless of what other clubs will cough up.

Encouraging AS will encourage other good/not great players -- expendables, in other words -- to value themselves at the level of "the club."

We'll know by September (probably.) That's all we can really say. But my own gut tells me the Pats already see themselves as having stretched the model a bit. They've got only so much room to work with, new cap numbers be damned, and still need to enforce the "gradual curve", big-middle-class approach to the extent they can, if they are indeed intent on a dynasty surviving any given year's turmoil. I for one think Kraft is an empire builder - in his perfect world, this model would continue after Brady, Belichick, and Pioli... at any rate, he, BB, and SP are not likely to panic over the departure of this year's poster boy for free agency, if it comes to it. They'll calmly and rationally attempt to extract maximum compensation for the loss.

Of course, if this is the year we go toward the Colts' "hockey stick" salary structure, hey -- I've been wrong before; and there is a trend line that supports that analysis (i.e., the delta between the structure in 2003 and 2007, for instance, even excluding "top contract" figures.)

PFnV
 
Dumping him MAY give him what he wants...see what he does..what of James and others at the CB position.... and seek a TRADE IF that is one that will be good for the team...work OUT a deal if that can be done fairly..AND I think BB.SP will do what is best IN the long run. NO keeping the team hostage..no having a player DEMAND..if they can dump him and NOT pay the almost 8 mill..AND THAT is the best thing for the team..fine..but I doubt that will be.
 
Just as MoLewisRocks can talk about the ritual dance of free agency, we can talk about the ritual dance of threads on free agency...

Any given thread is like a little environment... just as the absence of large herd fauna on some islands allowed giant birds to fill the niche, so too someone will arise to fill any missing niche on a thread. I'm going to fill the "waaaah giving in to Samuel sends the wrong message" niche. To anybody who's already filled it on this thread, my apologies for not getting there first. It's historically been a big niche though, so hey, just welcome me to the herd...

Right. You guys know the numbers (sort of.) We like a big group of players between a million or two bucks and five or so million... then there's (of course) another big group at cheap pay (early in their careers, and backups.) Then there is "The Club", which is getting paid big bucks. "The Club" historically has expanded as we go... Brady moves up to Law's place in the salary cap hierarchy... Seymour (roughly) moves up to Brady's old place... but now we've got Colvin edging up into the higher cap-dollar territory, and AD starting out there. Brady's hit peaks next year at a whopping $14M. And yeah, we have the D-Lineman contracts to deal with too.

So in the midst of all that - the question of what Samuel is worth becomes a question of what he actually brings to the table.

He thinks he brings a presence worthy of "the club." I think he brings a presence in the "good not great" category, regardless of what other clubs will cough up.

Encouraging AS will encourage other good/not great players -- expendables, in other words -- to value themselves at the level of "the club."

We'll know by September (probably.) That's all we can really say. But my own gut tells me the Pats already see themselves as having stretched the model a bit. They've got only so much room to work with, new cap numbers be damned, and still need to enforce the "gradual curve", big-middle-class approach to the extent they can, if they are indeed intent on a dynasty surviving any given year's turmoil. I for one think Kraft is an empire builder - in his perfect world, this model would continue after Brady, Belichick, and Pioli... at any rate, he, BB, and SP are not likely to panic over the departure of this year's poster boy for free agency, if it comes to it. They'll calmly and rationally attempt to extract maximum compensation for the loss.

Of course, if this is the year we go toward the Colts' "hockey stick" salary structure, hey -- I've been wrong before; and there is a trend line that supports that analysis (i.e., the delta between the structure in 2003 and 2007, for instance, even excluding "top contract" figures.)

PFnV

First off, I don't think we will ever remotely approach the hockey stick. It may appear to you as if we are, but you need to look at AAV as well as cap. Colvin for example is a $4M+ AAV bargain basement by current standards starting OLB on a contender. Don't let his cap or Brady's (whose actual deal averages $10M per) scare you at any given juncture. There is lots of manipulation that goes on by design. We needed cap space early in Colvin's deal, don't need it this season. We structured Brady's for a little relief early, absorbability under an exploding expanded cap, and friendly in the out years whether he plays them out or we extend him with little dead cap or existing/remaining amortization to muddle up the works. In each of the last two years, and again next year, we could easily restructure Tommy's deal and push out amortization (his cap ends in single digits in 2010) but my guess is we will not unless we need a little wiggle room for anothe special player. We are preferring the pay as you go, or even pay a little more up front as you go, model that the team in Indianapolis aren't even in a position to try to duplicate, though Polian would love it if he was.

As for Asante, I don't think he's a player you will see enter the club for several reasons. First, he's not elite at his position. He's very good in this system and probably pretty good in some others. Kinda like old Meion. And those positions are both one's BB will not extend himself dramatically for because of how the system works, let alone for players who don't project a winning first attitude. AD projected that (was willing to take a little less than max value) as well as rare talent at a position they highly value. He immediately projects into the club level. Hopefully one or both of Warren and Wilfork will choose to when their number comes up. Because I do agree that they are stretching the model a bit and I think they will part company with ANYONE who attempts to force them to stretch if beyond what they deem as reasonable. Seymour could go next time out which I believe is why they only agreed to give him his money for 3 seasons they could spread over 4 to remain cap friendly for his talent and position. Luckily for us, Brady will continue to play ball because for him it all remains about winning and legacy - same things that keep Belioli here.
 
First off, I don't think we will ever remotely approach the hockey stick. It may appear to you as if we are, but you need to look at AAV as well as cap. Colvin for example is a $4M+ AAV bargain basement by current standards starting OLB on a contender. Don't let his cap or Brady's (whose actual deal averages $10M per) scare you at any given juncture. There is lots of manipulation that goes on by design. We needed cap space early in Colvin's deal, don't need it this season. We structured Brady's for a little relief early, absorbability under an exploding expanded cap, and friendly in the out years whether he plays them out or we extend him with little dead cap or existing/remaining amortization to muddle up the works. In each of the last two years, and again next year, we could easily restructure Tommy's deal and push out amortization (his cap ends in single digits in 2010) but my guess is we will not unless we need a little wiggle room for anothe special player. We are preferring the pay as you go, or even pay a little more up front as you go, model that the team in Indianapolis aren't even in a position to try to duplicate, though Polian would love it if he was.

As for Asante, I don't think he's a player you will see enter the club for several reasons. First, he's not elite at his position. He's very good in this system and probably pretty good in some others. Kinda like old Meion. And those positions are both one's BB will not extend himself dramatically for because of how the system works, let alone for players who don't project a winning first attitude. AD projected that (was willing to take a little less than max value) as well as rare talent at a position they highly value. He immediately projects into the club level. Hopefully one or both of Warren and Wilfork will choose to when their number comes up. Because I do agree that they are stretching the model a bit and I think they will part company with ANYONE who attempts to force them to stretch if beyond what they deem as reasonable. Seymour could go next time out which I believe is why they only agreed to give him his money for 3 seasons they could spread over 4 to remain cap friendly for his talent and position. Luckily for us, Brady will continue to play ball because for him it all remains about winning and legacy - same things that keep Belioli here.

AD split the difference w/the Pats, basically, but the Pats must think of him as a pretty good risk (as do you.) They "project" one thing, but he could well be quite another... with $20M going his way in the next couple of years, and $7M AAV. I look at that deal and think, "well, they were serious about this guy and think he's worth it...." In Bill I trust, of course. But an instant "club" membership...? Wow! The only explanation that makes sense is he's proven himself elite, not that he's projected to be elite... two pro bowls would bolster that explanation. Also, just as a player can be less valuable to the Patriots than their general value would indicate, the reverse can be true as well. A good character guy who excels in the versatility department would get a little bump in the Belioli value scheme. Last but not least, he's from Equality, Alabama. I mean, come on!

I do agree we're seeing the bill coming due for Colvin right now, which is a fair critique of looking specifically at his present cap hit vs. his AAV.

But taking together the cap hits over the last 5 seasons, you can see the Pats' gentle slope becoming more like the sharp angle curve, and less like a "gentle slope with exceptions." The model thus far shows a lot of meat in the middle class. Add a few more "top flight" contracts, and that is just gone. AAV simple helps establish the next year's "curve," from this point of view. And as we all know, the system is expanding. So what we will see is a depiction of whether new wealth goes to a new size of "club" at the relative "top," or whether we beef up that infamous New England middle class of players, proportionate to the increase in available cash leaguewide. Managing those hits has ended up providing the curve this shape, regardless of what the respective AAVs are. Asante's demands would threaten this curve, regardless of how and when we took the hit, especially if followed by others in his "pretty good" category.

I think we agree that Asante falls into the "middle" group, but wants to be in the "club". If the "middle" gets paid like the "club", we can afford maybe 15-20 players for the entire season, an obvious impossibility. So either Asante is mistaken in his initial self-evaluation, or we are mistaken in our evaluation of Asante.

We're getting closer to the hockey stick, by the way, comparing over time. We still have that curve for the middle rather than an angle... but you can not preserve the curve without saying "no" to middle guys that want "in."

PFnV
 
He's a system cornerback in the system that fits him best. Just like Branch was a system WR in the system that fit him best. His numbers before this year were average so I say that we trade him on draft day for ridiculous compensation.
 
Unless your crystal ball is a little clearer than the rest of ours, you don't know that he's going to ***** and moan all season. This is just one act in the franchise tag dance
Only one act? I see your crystal ball is working just fine. Comeon, man, by your own logic you don'tknow that he WONT whine all year. Opinions are like buttholes. Everyone has one.
 
Throw him another 500G and he'll sign. It's not about the money. It's about "respect"!
 
Throw him another 500G and he'll sign. It's not about the money. It's about "respect"!

Samuel has a tatoo that says "Get Paid". I think it is safe to assume it is about the money and not respect. Besides, if it was about respect throwing him another $500k when he is reported to want $30 million in his first three years, might be considered an insult.

I think ultimately that Samuel will play for the franchise number. I hope the Pats don't give him a long term deal because he hasn't shown enough to deserve Dre Bly money, never mind Nate Clements money. He didn't even start the season as the Pats' #1 CB. I think if he plays under the franchise number, it gives us an out if his play the second half of last season was a fluke.

If someone offers us a first for him, I think we should take it. I think our defense is all about the front seven. We can and have put average to below after CBs in our secondary and won a Super Bowl because our front seven.
 
. We can and have put average to below after CBs in our secondary and won a Super Bowl because our front seven.

Or......was that Superbowl won you refer to a direct result of Samuel being that "average to below" CB?
 
What's your plan, Einstein? Pay him his ransom money or endure his *****ing and moaning the whole season while he waits until week 10 to show up?

Actuallly pin head I hope he signs the one-year agreement and plays next year. This fact probably escapes you, but our SB chances are actually better with Samuel than without him, you're love for Gay, Wilson "and that guy from Cincy" aside.
 
Or......was that Superbowl won you refer to a direct result of Samuel being that "average to below" CB?

I really don't get your point. Donavon McNabb did throw for 357 yards and 3 TDs in that game. Yes, he was intercepted 3 times, but none by a CB. T.O. got 122 yards and Todd Pinkston had 82 yards eventhough he spent most of the third quarter in the lockerroom getting an IV. Our front seven and Harrison really covered for our CBs in that game.

Samuel was very average that season at best. We hid our CB problems with pressure from our front seven and Harrison that year.
 
Actuallly pin head I hope he signs the one-year agreement and plays next year. This fact probably escapes you, but our SB chances are actually better with Samuel than without him, you're love for Gay, Wilson "and that guy from Cincy" aside.

I think our Super Bowl hopes are better, but losing him would far from dash our Super Bowl hopes. People thought we probably wouldn't win the division last season without Branch. No one thought we had a snowball chance in Hell of going to the AFC Championship game without him.

I think there are several CBs in the draft who can make as big of an impact as Samuel this season if we got an additional first round pick. People seem to forget that most people didn't even want to resign this guy last October because he wasn't worth the money he wanted and that was nowhere close to what he wants now.
 
Actuallly pin head I hope he signs the one-year agreement and plays next year. This fact probably escapes you, but our SB chances are actually better with Samuel than without him, you're love for Gay, Wilson "and that guy from Cincy" aside.
Many ifs here to make that statement true...and I HOPE he does sign and play..but the Pats chances ARE better IF he plays like he did the LAST HALF of the season and not like the first half....and also IF he keeps a positove attitude and NOT a whining distraction which could happen. I do NOT think it a given that is he plays the team is automatically better. Sure it's all about winning..and having a better chance..but there are always costs..I do think that the Pats will do the best thing for the team..they have in the past and will.
 
Many ifs here to make that statement true...and I HOPE he does sign and play..but the Pats chances ARE better IF he plays like he did the LAST HALF of the season and not like the first half....and also IF he keeps a positove attitude and NOT a whining distraction which could happen. I do NOT think it a given that is he plays the team is automatically better. Sure it's all about winning..and having a better chance..but there are always costs..I do think that the Pats will do the best thing for the team..they have in the past and will.

This is where we trust the judgement of BB/SP - they KNOW the answer as to his value and if he will be A/S pre or post October.

Whatever they do, thinking of it this way makes me feel better.

IN BB / SP we trust!!
 
Actuallly pin head I hope he signs the one-year agreement and plays next year. This fact probably escapes you, but our SB chances are actually better with Samuel than without him, you're love for Gay, Wilson "and that guy from Cincy" aside.

No **** sherlock. That seems unlikely.

And don't call me a 'pinhead', I'm not allowed to insult people on here, so it's bull**** if you are. But for the record you should have your guts stomped out by me.
 
No **** sherlock. That seems unlikely.

And don't call me a 'pinhead', I'm not allowed to insult people on here, so it's bull**** if you are. But for the record you should have your guts stomped out by me.

I want to learn to be as much of a badass as you are. :rolleyes:
 
I'm fine with whatever happens to Samuel.

But for those who want to "dump him" who starts in his place next season?

I see a lot of dump him posts, but I see very little in the way of discussion on what impact that has on the secondary in 2007, and more to the point, our SB hopes.


Excellent point. Appears BB and Pioli are proceeding wisely. Keeping him for one more season under a reasonably priced contract would be best, imo, but if he starts really acting like a child then better to trade him now and get it over with.


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Excellent point. Appears BB and Pioli are proceeding wisely. Keeping him for one more season under a reasonably priced contract would be best, imo, but if he starts really acting like a child then better to trade him now and get it over with.


//
I thought it was a great move franchising Asante. As a FA he can speak to whomever he wants and they can promise him the world, but if they really want him lets deal. I don't think the Pats want two first round picks but would settle for 2nd and 3rd round compensation. I think what they did here was equal to what they did with TBucky Jones and NO took the bait. If the don't trade him that means I would think a deal is in the works. I would think the Branch fiasco has taught them not to string it out. There is nothing wrong with a player trying to shoot himself out of town as long as you get the appropiate compensation.
 
I'd trade him in a second if somebody was offering a first rounder.
 
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