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The ineligible package...


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What I really like is how quickly Harbaugh reversed course when it became clear that he was clowning himself. In his presser, he talking about how it was a deceptive, illegal-type formation. Once he reviewed the tape enough to realize that any pee wee football player knows it's a legal formation, he changed his complaint to not having time to match substitutions. Which is also factually, objectively, self-evidently untrue.

And ****ing asinine, because they're two completely separate issues. Let's just look at them separately.

1) The formation issue
Look at Peter King's screenshot of the formation:

oEOGigO.jpg

Vereen was on the line of scrimmage, and so was Edelman outside of him. Since there must be seven men on the line, and only the two outside guys are eligible, that means that Vereen was clearly ineligible. If he'd run a route, the Pats would have been flagged for illegal formation (or maybe for illegal man downfield, depends on how they'd decided to call it). This is a basic, 101-level thing that the refs check for on every play, and that every defender on the field has been coached to look for on every play since high school at the latest.

Likewise, notice how LaFell and Amendola are both off the line up top. The result of that is that Hoomanawanui is the last man on the line, which makes him, by definition, an eligible receiver.

That's what keeps getting glossed over. The general understanding of the issue seems to be that, if Vereen hadn't declared ineligible, he would have been an eligible receiver, Hoomanawanui would have been a tackle, and that's that. Basically, that the entire sequence hinged on Vereen's declaration. But that's just not the case: the formation itself dictated that Vereen was ineligible and Hoomanawanui was eligible; he only had to declare as much because of the number he was wearing. Aside from that, the formation speaks for itself. It is always the case that the only eligible receivers on the LOS are the guys on the end, and in this formation it was Hooman and Edelman. Vereen was ineligible, whether or not he declared it.

A smarter, more aware defense would have recognized that and just left Vereen alone. The only reason to even consider defending him is if you're worried that the refs will miss it and blow the call, but the moment that he's declared ineligible even that reasoning is gone. This was a pretty elementary mistake, and while I can understand the players making it once in the heat of the moment (but not three times), I can't understand Harbaugh's failure to call a timeout and instruct his defense accordingly.


2) The substitution issue
When Kline came out of the game, the Ravens were given ample time to make their own corresponding substitutions. That's what the rulebook requires, and the Ravens absolutely got it, well after they (should have) realized the Pats only had four linemen in the huddle. The substitution rules are in place to ensure that the defense can match up to the offense's personnel, and the Ravens were given every chance to make substitutions to match the Pats' personnel.

What they weren't given was a bunch of extra time pre-snap to review the Pats' formation and try to figure out exactly what the Pats were doing. Which nobody was under any obligation to give them in the first place. If they weren't comfortable with their understanding of what's going on, that's what timeouts are for.

It's just a really stupid complaint coming from Harbaugh. He seems to be claiming that they were owed time to substitute after seeing the Patriots formation, which is stupid. They are owed time to make substitutions only when the Patriots make a substitution, and they got their time. If they were too dumb to notice that a lineman was being swapped out for a skill position player--which they 100% should have noticed, assumed something was up, and called a timeout shortly after the Pats came to the line and showed their hand--then that's just their own incompetence at work.

A couple of points:
1) The penalty you mentioned for Vereen going downfield could only be ineligible man downfield, not illegal formation, because the formation was legal. It would be ORT going downfield, which isn't an illegal formation.
2) Excellent point about the substitution thing that I want to expand on.
The defense is allowed to substitute when the offense does. It happens all game long. When the offense changes from 2 TE to 3 WR for example, a DB runs on and a DL or LB runs off, consistently without being told. The Ravens had that opportunity. What Harbaugh is asking for is that since its not a personnel group that he know how to counter that they stop and let him figure it out. Sorry, that's not the rule. Since you cannot declare eligible/ineligible without a personnel change, you are never in a position where you need time to adjust personnel to who is eligible after the announcement because you had the chance to sub already.
3) A smarter, more aware defense would not have left Vereen alone, because then Brady would have thrown him a lateral, and it would be off to the races. I believe that was exactly what they were hoping to accomplish with the confusion.
 
Pretty sure #3 is wrong. Ineligible means ineligible.

Disregard... I am dumb
 
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Pretty sure #3 is wrong. Ineligible means ineligible.

No. Ineligible receivers can still get the ball on a lateral. All Vereen would have to do is wave his hands to distract people, then when they ignored him drop back a bit, and have Brady lateral the ball to him. Then he could either run or throw a forward pass.
 
How is this for a scenario.... OL comes in and does not have to declare himself ineligible due to the fact he is wearing a # that makes him ineligible already. But they line up in the exact same formation and put the OL in Vereens spot. Run a screen behind the OL or hit the TE in the left tackle spot going up the seam again if not paying attention.

I personally think this would be dumb... Just asking if I am understanding the rule correctly
 
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Watching the replay on NFLN and it is obvious this was a package specifically tailored with Hooman in mind, since it's easier to disguise his eligibility as he is often in formation than out, so not easily noticable.

On that drive, it actually started earlier, except Hooman wasn't targeted as he went upfield. The fact that Hooman suddenly went upfield out of formation should have set off alarm bells for the Ravens D but they didn't catch on to it until this play had elapsed two more times, the last time of course being that big completion to him. By then it was too late.
 
Since you cannot declare eligible/ineligible without a personnel change, you are never in a position where you need time to adjust personnel to who is eligible after the announcement because you had the chance to sub already.

Not true. An ineligible number can report as eligible at any time and an eligible number can report as ineligible at any time. However, once they've reported they are "stuck" in the reported eligibility state until they leave the field for a play or there is a timeout, quarter end, 2MW, foul, challenge, TD, FG, or change of possession.

So NE could have 5 OL, Brady, Vereen, Gronk, Edelman, LaFell, Hooman on the field and on play 1 have everyone do their usual thing and then on play 2 have Vereen report as ineligible, line up on the line in the slot, covered by (say) Edelman. No substitution needed to change the eligibility. Now, having done that, Vereen is stuck being ineligible until one of the aforementioned things happen. See Rule 5, Section 3, Articles 1 and 2.
 
How is this for a scenario.... OL comes in and does not have to declare himself ineligible due to the fact he is wearing a # that makes him ineligible already. But they line up in the exact same formation and put the OL in Vereens spot. Run a screen behind the OL or hit the TE in the left tackle spot going up the seam again if not paying attention.

I personally think this would be dumb... Just asking if I am understanding the rule correctly

You are. Though as you figured, it probably wouldn't work very well since seeing an OLman out in the slot is a huge tip-off to the defense that something is up.
 
Not true. An ineligible number can report as eligible at any time and an eligible number can report as ineligible at any time. However, once they've reported they are "stuck" in the reported eligibility state until they leave the field for a play or there is a timeout, quarter end, 2MW, foul, challenge, TD, FG, or change of possession.

So NE could have 5 OL, Brady, Vereen, Gronk, Edelman, LaFell, Hooman on the field and on play 1 have everyone do their usual thing and then on play 2 have Vereen report as ineligible, line up on the line in the slot, covered by (say) Edelman. No substitution needed to change the eligibility. Now, having done that, Vereen is stuck being ineligible until one of the aforementioned things happen. See Rule 5, Section 3, Articles 1 and 2.

No you still need a personnel change. Why?
You have to declare an ineligible when you have 7 eligible numbers and 4 non-eligibles. Just as you have to declare an eligible when you have 6 non-eligible numbers and 5 eligible.

So in order to have a formation with a player wearing an eligible number ineligible you had to either have had him ineligible on the prior play, or made a substitution.

In your example, it would only work if they ALSO declared an OL eligible, because by declaring Vereen as one of your 5 ineligibles you have to declare one of the OL as eligible. That would defeat the purpose. If you have 6 ineligible players, you have an illegal formation.
 
Watching the replay on NFLN and it is obvious this was a package specifically tailored with Hooman in mind, since it's easier to disguise his eligibility as he is often in formation than out, so not easily noticable.

On that drive, it actually started earlier, except Hooman wasn't targeted as he went upfield. The fact that Hooman suddenly went upfield out of formation should have set off alarm bells for the Ravens D but they didn't catch on to it until this play had elapsed two more times, the last time of course being that big completion to him. By then it was too late.
Hooman was the inelgible player on one of the 3. (I think the second, but thats from memory. Definitely wasn't the 3rd)
 
No you still need a personnel change. Why?
You have to declare an ineligible when you have 7 eligible numbers and 4 non-eligibles. Just as you have to declare an eligible when you have 6 non-eligible numbers and 5 eligible.

So in order to have a formation with a player wearing an eligible number ineligible you had to either have had him ineligible on the prior play, or made a substitution.

In your example, it would only work if they ALSO declared an OL eligible, because by declaring Vereen as one of your 5 ineligibles you have to declare one of the OL as eligible. That would defeat the purpose. If you have 6 ineligible players, you have an illegal formation.

that's not right. you have to have a minimum of 7 players on the LOS, but you can have more. you could have 10 players on the LOS if you wanted, but only the two end players would be eligible.
 
that's not right. you have to have a minimum of 7 players on the LOS, but you can have more. you could have 10 players on the LOS if you wanted, but only the two end players would be eligible.
Not true. We have seen penalties when the flanker is on the line and covers the TE.
 
Not true. We have seen penalties when the flanker is on the line and covers the TE.

the penalty there is that you have an eligible number (the TE) covered up by another eligible number (the flanker). if the TE declared himself ineligible, the formation would be perfectly legal.
 
Hooman was the inelgible player on one of the 3. (I think the second, but thats from memory. Definitely wasn't the 3rd)

First and Second plays.
 

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If you have 6 ineligible players, you have an illegal formation.

Pretty sure that's incorrect. The rules (implicitly) only set the minimum number of ineligible receivers. See Rule 7, Section 4, Article 5:
2013 NFL Rulebook said:
Section 5 Position of Players at the Snap

Article 1: Offensive Team. The offensive team must be in compliance with the following at the snap:
(a) It must have seven or more players on its line (3-19-1); and
(b) Eligible receivers must be on both ends of the line, and all of the players on the line between them must be ineligible receivers.
(c) No player may be out of bounds.

(a) and (b) together imply you can have more than 5. Since (a) says you can have more than 7 players on the line and (b) says everyone on the line other than ends are ineligible you are therefore allowed to have more than 5 ineligible players.
 
Dean Blandino is going to explain why John Harbaugh is a cry baby on Total Access tonight for anyone interested.

I'm sure the Ravens fans won't be... :rolleyes:
 
Pretty sure that's incorrect. The rules (implicitly) only set the minimum number of ineligible receivers. See Rule 7, Section 4, Article 5:


(a) and (b) together imply you can have more than 5. Since (a) says you can have more than 7 players on the line and (b) says everyone on the line other than ends are ineligible you are therefore allowed to have more than 5 ineligible players.
If an eligible receiver is covered by another player outside him on the LOS it is a penalty. Ocho cinco got that called a few times.
So if you have 7 eligible numbers one must report as ineligible.
 
That shows just the first
 
the penalty there is that you have an eligible number (the TE) covered up by another eligible number (the flanker). if the TE declared himself ineligible, the formation would be perfectly legal.
That's my point. If you have 7 eligible numbers, which is what we are saying one must report. Therefore every time you run this gimmick a substitution would required unless it's on consecutive plays.
 
That's my point. If you have 7 eligible numbers, which is what we are saying one must report. Therefore every time you run this gimmick a substitution would required unless it's on consecutive plays.

okay, i think i see the confusion here. rlcarr was only disputing this part (in blue bold) of your original assertion:

Since you cannot declare eligible/ineligible without a personnel change, you are never in a position where you need time to adjust personnel to who is eligible after the announcement because you had the chance to sub already.

rlcarr's example was a general example to prove that point, not a specific example relating to the 4OL gimmick play. i agree with rlcarr--you can declare eligible/ineligible without a personnel change, by adding more players to the LOS and reducing the number of eligible receivers.

however, in reference specifically to the 4OL gimmick play, to achieve the formation the patriots ran, i agree you would have to do a substitution. and i also agree with your point (in red bold), that if the offense changes a player's eligibility accompanied with a substitution (in order to keep 5 eligible receivers), then the defense would already have been afforded time to substitute their own players and shouldn't get any additional time to make any other adjustments.
 
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