BB Doesn't Agree That JC91 is a bust and wasn't a need

Ice_Ice_Brady said:

Is there anyone in the world who thinks he is a bust?

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I don't know about "anyone in the world", however, I solidly agree with your general sentiment. While JC had some stretches of getting schooled/learning the ropes, "bust" was never a label people could thoughtfully believe applied. JC is in second year, hasn't missed a game, and has been steadily showing improvement as playing time increased. How one concludes "bust" from this brief but easily read track record is puzzling...

TheBostonStraggler said:

I don't know about "anyone in the world", however, I solidly agree with your general sentiment. While JC had some stretches of getting schooled/learning the ropes, "bust" was never a label people could thoughtfully believe applied. JC is in second year, hasn't missed a game, and has been steadily showing improvement as playing time increased. How one concludes "bust" from this brief but easily read track record is puzzling...

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You know, even me, who has a real achilles heel for certain kinds of forceful personalities, would not post 99% of the snark that I do if he.. I mean they would show the slightest bit of graciousness or humility.

But since thats never going to happen, I doubt I'm in any um danger of feeling bad.

http://www.patsfans.com/new-england...and-release-lb-deontae-skinner.1113068/page-2

"Interesting" discussion in there about Collins. The bust word wasn't used, but the phrase "not a very good starter" was along with "I'm tired of all the stupidity around here" and (paraphrasing) "I need to make heavier use of the Ignore feature."

Or there's this thread where Patsfancraig now appears to have been more right than the poster taking him to task for being excited about Collins. Theres also a little Belichick is a bad GM for letting Spikes go because Hightower sucks thrown in there too.

http://www.patsfans.com/new-england...yer-are-you-most-excited-about.1110635/page-6

Took a look in that thread got a kick out of this one. Especially the last line.

Deus Irae said:

The kid showed a few flashes, and he had one excellent game, but the hyping of this kid is already insane. Can you imagine the letdown around here if he ever misses a tackle or drops an interception, or blows a coverage? The Tobin will be end-to-end jumpers.

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Only people I see on the Tobin are the Collins detractors or why else have they gone completely quiet?

JMC00 said:

Only people I see on the Tobin are the Collins detractors or why else have they gone completely quiet?

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Because they know they look dumb now.

Marqui said:

Because they know they look dumb now.

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Just absolutely hilarious that they won't come out and say they completely jumped the gun by about 20 seconds on Collins. Nope, they'll just sit there quiet and wait until he messes up. So sad that they are practically rooting for the guy to be bad so they can say "I told you he was bad, idiots".

robertweathers said:

Yep. The problem is that people remember Bethel Johnson, Ron Brace and Chad Jackson more.

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Misses are usually more memorable than a hit.

I bet someone has this thread on ignore.

JMC00 said:

Just absolutely hilarious that they won't come out and say they completely jumped the gun by about 20 seconds on Collins. Nope, they'll just sit there quiet and wait until he messes up. So sad that they are practically rooting for the guy to be bad so they can say "I told you he was bad, idiots".

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This is the way they operate. And just as they will wait through good play for a player to have bad game or a bad season to declare how right they were they do the same with the team. All those who claimed they suck and would go nowhere this season will hold they lose in the playoffs or SB and then act as if they were right all along.

Deus Irae said:

Yeah, that must be it. Baltimore needs a safety and a MLB, and they go straight for their targets. NE needs a WR and a safety, and they head straight for an outside linebacker.

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Let this be a lesson about drafting for need rather than BPA. Arthur Brown has 11 career tackles and Matt Elam is a garbage safety. Meanwhile, we're stuck with a future All-Pro LB.

I don't mean to call Deus out, but I just wish he would acknowledge this one topic, just this one. Admitting your wrong is fun

I'll go first:

Sterling Moore
Kenbrell Thompkins
Johnny Manziel
Mike Evans
Pat Chung
Donta Hightower
Toby Gerhart
Brandon Browner
Kyle Arrington
Tavon Austin

Isn't there a 'call yourself out' thread?

If they hasn't mentioned Jamie Collins, then yeaaaaahhhhh.

JMC00 said:

Took a look in that thread got a kick out of this one. Especially the last line.


Only people I see on the Tobin are the Collins detractors or why else have they gone completely quiet?

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They just privately send you messages about how you disliked this or that post.

Some old links from past threads near draft day (I didn't check if any were posted already). Have a look for nostalgia's sake:

http://www.patsfans.com/new-england...riots-southern-miss-lb-jamie-collins.1023527/

http://www.patsfans.com/new-england...ts-making-the-case-for-jamie-collins.1024483/
This one's an Idle Thoughts.

http://www.patsfans.com/new-england...-includes-info-from-college-teammate.1024669/

http://www.patsfans.com/new-england...hreads/reading-into-the-collins-pick.1024460/

Calciumee said:

Misses are usually more memorable than a hit.

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...and in the second round, he's missed a lot.
Klemm
B. Johnson
M. Hill
C. Jackson
Wheatley
Brace
Butler
Cunningham
Dowling
T. Wilson (?)
Dobson (?)

...But nailed a bunch too
Light
Branch
E. Wilson
Chung
Gronk
Vereen
Collins
Garappolo (?)

you guys are all wrong

deus is right

Collins stinks

Marqui said:

According to their combine numbers, Collins is more explosive but Kuechly is quicker, faster, and stronger.

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I wasn't aware of that, and thanks for bringing it to my attention

I was going off of pure eye test of athletic evaluation, which I'll freely admit is pretty soft. However, I believe that combine numbers are best used to compliment on-field evaluation. Some of the metrics used in the combine are far from perfect, and some comically poor. I'd be pretty shocked if there was anyone with even a basic understanding of training thinks how many times a guy can rep 2 pairs of biscuits on a flat bench is a good determinant of functional playing strength. I'm sure Vernon Davis has better combine numbers than Gronk would have had but it's pretty obvious who is the more physically dominant player.

I think the key to this conversation is the word transcendent. I absolutely agree with you that Kuechly is a fine athlete and a hell of a football player. There is no debating that. Having said that, there are a lot of guys who come into the league that become elite for their position. They become elite because they have everything required to play the position at the highest level. There is no disputing that Kuechly is absolutely that. I think that every defensive coach in the league would like to have a Luke Kuechly because he fills the position requirements perfect and can execute the standard plays and responsibilities of the defense he is placed in. Kuechly is an excellent product of the mold. Collins presents the hips of a defensive back, the speed and range of an inside linebacker, and the explosion of an elite defensive end. That simply doesn't exist. Defensive coaches would like to have Collins because he presents opportunity. His skills enable him to do things most other players at his position simply could not do. A player like Collins is equally rare and unique which I why I refered to him as a transcendent talent.

jays52 said:

I wasn't aware of that, and thanks for bringing it to my attention

I was going off of pure eye test of athletic evaluation, which I'll freely admit is pretty soft. However, I believe that combine numbers are best used to compliment on-field evaluation. Some of the metrics used in the combine are far from perfect, and some comically poor. I'd be pretty shocked if there was anyone with even a basic understanding of training thinks how many times a guy can rep 2 pairs of biscuits on a flat bench is a good determinant of functional playing strength. I'm sure Vernon Davis has better combine numbers than Gronk would have had but it's pretty obvious who is the more physically dominant player.

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agreed......there are guys at every gym in the country that can do 30 reps of 225...but they're stiffs....heck, i can do 20 reps on a good day

BTW......you never responded to my post about your speculation of brady being on TRT

Rob0729 said:

Belichick doesn't know what he is talking about. And his Lawrence Taylor reference is laughable. Did Taylor have Tavon Wilson drafted the year before him? Of course not because if he did, he would have been the most talented bust to ever be inducted into the Pro Football Hall of Fame.

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Huh?

(Ian, can you check to see if there's a bug in the software? I think Rob0729 is the victim of demonic possession by his avatar.)

james87654 said:

agreed......there are guys at every gym in the country that can do 30 reps of 225...but they're stiffs....heck, i can do 20 reps on a good day

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james87654 said:

agreed......there are guys at every gym in the country that can do 30 reps of 225...but they're stiffs....heck, i can do 20 reps on a good day

BTW......you never responded to my post about your speculation of brady being on TRT

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Word.

My bad on that, man. What was the gist of it?

jays52 said:

I think the key to this conversation is the word transcendent. I absolutely agree with you that Kuechly is a fine athlete and a hell of a football player. There is no debating that. Having said that, there are a lot of guys who come into the league that become elite for their position. They become elite because they have everything required to play the position at the highest level. There is no disputing that Kuechly is absolutely that. I think that every defensive coach in the league would like to have a Luke Kuechly because he fills the position requirements perfect and can execute the standard plays and responsibilities of the defense he is placed in. Kuechly is an excellent product of the mold. Collins presents the hips of a defensive back, the speed and range of an inside linebacker, and the explosion of an elite defensive end. That simply doesn't exist. Defensive coaches would like to have Collins because he presents opportunity. His skills enable him to do things most other players at his position simply could not do. A player like Collins is equally rare and unique which I why I refered to him as a transcendent talent.

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I agree with this distinction between "elite" and "transcendent", and think it's important. Luke Kuechly is an elite player, but not a transcendent one. Darrelle Revis would fall into the same category - he is supremely good at what he does, but he doesn't break the mold for a CB. You want a great MLB or a great CB and you point at them as the prototypes.

JJ Watt, OTOH, is a transcendent player - he breaks the mold. A 3-4 DE who produces 20 sack seasons and has more passes defended than most DBs "just doesn't exist", to use your term. Collins and Gronk are both transcendent players to me. As you say, a guy with "the hips of a defensive back, the speed and range of an inside linebacker, and the explosion of an elite defensive end" just doesn't exist.