Overstating the Obvious

The offensive line has been the achilles' heel of this team for years, that is a fact and that has been the basis of the so called "blueprint" to beat the pats because everyone knows that given time in the pocket, Brady will score 30 with any set of receivers.

Something is different this year though - Logan Mankins is no longer here, and that makes me optimistic. Now we just have to see who we face in the playoffs... if Brady starts to get balls batted down at the LOS and starts to throw at receivers' feet then we are done. Otherwise we will win the Superbowl.

DarrylS said:

Also question why they don't use the no huddle more to develop an offensive rhythm.. particularly when they get into an offensive malaise.

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I am actually not a big fan of the no-huddle offense. It is great when it works and can quickly take the opponent out of the game. But it can also cause really fast 3-and-outs, tire the defense, and give momentum to the opponent. I much prefer the slow and methodical tempo-controlling approach.

goheels22002 said:

The Mankins - Wright trade is not the reason why the Patriots are where they are. Much bigger factors involve players like Revis, Browner, Stork, Blount, LaFell, Branch, Wilfork and Peyton Manning gagging on the road in the Broncos two biggest outdoor road games of the season (@ Patriots and @ Bengals.)

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When did I ever claim that? I am stating the Pats could not be better than having HFA if they kept Mankins. I am saying at this point having Mankins would not make a difference. If they lose in the playoffs because the interior line falls apart, then talk to me.

And claiming the reason why the Pats won HFA is because Manning choked is rewriting history. The Pats were just the better team when they came here. Plain and simple. And the Pats controlled their own destiny before Cincy beat the Broncos. Even if the Broncos won on Monday night, the Pats were still very likely to get HFA.

AndyJohnson said:

Meh. They struggled early. Sacked on 3rd down twice in the first 3 drives.
After that:

TD
Punt
Punt
FG on a 13 play 81 yard drive
TD
turnover
11 play clock killing drive

17 points which would have been at least 20 if not 24 if they needed them on the last drive in 7 drives is not that bad.
Not a great day, but hardly pathetic. Better communication in the OL and/or Connolly in there and they probably put up the normal 30.

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Yep. And that INT was a gift. Brady put it were only LaFell could get his hands on it and it took a bounce into a jests player. Now I know chicken littles will say the pressure forced the INT, no Chandler's pressure forced an INT that Collins made the play on, Brady's pass still got to the hands of LaFell and bounced 2 yards into the lap of the jests CB.

I wouldnt look at the Jets game as the definitive reason of "The OL stinks!" They have done pretty well the last few weeks, and against the Jets the pats were resting a few injured players. we have played some pretty stout D-lines and overall the OL has played well.

its pretty clear that connoly is much better than devey/kline/cannon that we trotted out there on sunday. And Smith has played pretty well against us in the past. This was the Jets superbowl.

as for the defense, are we forgetting the weeks where we shut down manning, luck, rivers, stafford? and held the packers to their lowest point total at home?

the defense is the least of my worries right now IMO

robertweathers said:

Fair point. Its tough to say. I think they beauty of this team is that they are very proactive, very quick and very good at filling holes- just like last year. VW goes down vs ATL, the world panics but they hire Siliga away from Papa Johns and trade for Sopoaga (who didnt really work out) .

I think it also depends on when VW became unavailable. For example, if they needed to put him on PUP from TC, do they keep Tommy Kelly? Do they bring Branch in earlier?

My point is that this team always finds a way to recover and be competitive.

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No disagreement on that at all, their ability to find good players to fill big holes during a season is better than any team in the league IMO. Finding Siliga and Chris Jones in season last year was nothing short of remarkable, and then to be able to add Branch, Ayers, Casillas, Gray, and Blount mid season was even better. I agree with you completely about their ability to find players to fill holes I used think people are missing the boat on how important it b was to have Wilfork this season and how well he has played, and given the losses they had on defense I think his performance was a key factor in holding it together until n they could find the help they eventually came up with.

Ivan said:

I think his performance was a key factor in holding it together until they could find the help they eventually came up with.

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He was absolutely a key factor. No question.

Slagathor said:

I find folks on here get so hung up on semantic arguments and instead of taking a visual/gutteral big picture view.
If stats were the be all to end all...Fanduel would not be a profitable venture for its owners and Las Vegas would simply be thruway to California.

I'd be very surprised if collectively anyone doesn't believe that Rex has historically been successful against Brady. The blueprint itself you can only pull off if you have the personnel and coaching....like the Giants did....twice.

Even though our defense is a huge upgrade over previous years....our Offense is what still in the end wins us games more than not. Our defense is not stifling...it is not a shutdown defense. We do not dictate the flow of the game with it. Our D is good at adjusting to what the other team is dictating and minimizing damage. It's like a being a kid that gets pummeled by a bully with 15 punches in a row...gets bloodied...but is able to slip in a shot to the nose that ends the fight. The bully lost...but the kid paid for it.

Back in 2007 when the Pats played the Eagles and Baltimore....we won those games. But those games scared me...a team I viewed as a juggernaut had a few noticeable flaws. The secondary's deficiencies were major.

I see the same here...but the flaws have changed. An O-line...with a complete lack of grit and a level of talent I would describe as basic.. A secondary that when playing in nickel and dime situations doesn't have the horses to stop teams with good receiving depth. ....and here's one more....our QB is getting old...he can't sidestep trouble the way he used....he doesn't want to get killed behind what he knows is a substandard line.

You don't need stats to see this on your TV screen.

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Not to argue for Andy but what exactly in 1-7 brings you to think that Rex Ryan has been so successful?

I know you are not a stat guy but 1-7 is a stat I'd encourage you to consider.

Also, this is a shutdown defense....if you don't realize this....you got bigger issues.

Deus Irae said:

I watch the games. I see what good teams with the right defensive strengths can do against them.



How to slow/stop the Patriots offense (2010-2014)

Rush Brady with 4 (if the rush can get there, the offense is in big trouble)
Flood middle of field with defenders
Limit YAC with good tackling

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The first statement is a truism. It applies to everyone and all the time. So what?

Statement 2 used to apply to the Pats and no longer does, as they DO HAVE a good outside the numbers receiver or two, in La Fell and occasionally Wright. Once upon a time the had only two receivers, and possibly a few more. Now they have three receivers, and a few more.

Statement 3 is a truism. It applies to everyone and all the time. So What?

goheels22002 said:

The Mankins - Wright trade is not the reason why the Patriots are where they are.

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Correction: It is NOT the "Mankins-Wright trade"

It is the "Mankins-Wright + 97th pick of the 2015 Draft trade + clearing millions of dollars of cap space".

What an epic steal.

You are right in that it is "not the reason why the Patriots are where they are", but it IS a major reason why they will be where they are going.

JMC00 said:

After they ditched that moving pieces OL they were doing in the 1st half, they gained 160 yards on 3 of the 5 drives in the 2nd and when that "big bad" jests DL needed to make a stop when the Pats got the ball back with 5 minutes to go they couldn't.

Only thing the jests D did in the 2nd half was get an INT gifted to them. I mean LaFell catches that ball if he is a foot closer to the middle of the field.

Like I've said in other threads Edelman and Connolly play they win by 14+. Hell if they would have just used the game plan they used in the 2nd half they probably win by 14. I mean I know they won by 1 point but if they wanted to they could have scored another TD at the end to make it 8 points.

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If Belichick wanted to do so He could have won by 4 or possibly 7. He had first and goal inside the 10 with a minute to play and several timeouts remaining.

BB could have kicked a FG. But there was a remote possibility it could be blocked.

He could have attempted to score a TD, but could have failed, fumbled or intercepted and had a return for a TD. A remote possibility, but BB knows that sure victory is C-E-R-T-A-I-N, even if only by a single point.

BB chose to insure victory by taking a series of kneel downs.

Deus Irae said:

The one real "flaw" the Patriots had in 2007 was a "flaw" that every team in history has had: Injuries can change everything. The secondary was fine.

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I agree. Hochstein, the principal OL reserve, was dinged in the Playoffs before the SB game. When Neal got hurt early in the SB, there was no adequate replacement against a team noted for its pass rush. Trying to cover for that, the other linemen tried to cover too wide and were beaten, making things worse.

shmessy said:

Correction: It is NOT the "Mankins-Wright trade"

It is the "Mankins-Wright + 97th pick of the 2015 Draft trade + clearing millions of dollars of cap space".

What an epic steal.

You are right in that it is "not the reason why the Patriots are where they are", but it IS a major reason why they will be where they are going.

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You're still in denial, or trolling horribly, I see... Sad, but not surprising.


Oh, well.....


Merry Christmas, and have a great night. Enjoy the thread. It's all yours.

Deus Irae said:

You're still in denial, or trolling horribly, I see... Sad, but not surprising.


Oh, well.....


Merry Christmas, and have a great night. Enjoy the thread. It's all yours.

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Huh???? Denial of what?

Who am I trolling????

My post agreed with Goheels regarding the present value of the trade but pointed out how the true value lies in the future details.

Then, somehow, you incoherently stumbled in with that bizarre/non-sequitor post.

Someone evidently has had a rough day today. Whatever may have happened, please go to sleep before you do anything unfortunate.

.....and in the words of Dikembe: You are welcome.

Slagathor said:

The O-line is what we all know it is....but the defense cannot depend on our secondary to keep people covered for 10 plus seconds while our pass rush "tries" to get to the quarterback. With guys like Rodgers and Wilson...this will not work.

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They contained Rogers quite well doing just that and were able to cover. The blown coverage on a slant to Nelson took all of about two seconds to develop.

Slagathor said:

Even though our defense is a huge upgrade over previous years....our Offense is what still in the end wins us games more than not. Our defense is not stifling...it is not a shutdown defense. We do not dictate the flow of the game with it. Our D is good at adjusting to what the other team is dictating and minimizing damage. It's like a being a kid that gets pummeled by a bully with 15 punches in a row...gets bloodied...but is able to slip in a shot to the nose that ends the fight. The bully lost...but the kid paid for it.

Back in 2007 when the Pats played the Eagles and Baltimore....we won those games. But those games scared me...a team I viewed as a juggernaut had a few noticeable flaws. The secondary's deficiencies were major.

I see the same here...but the flaws have changed. An O-line...with a complete lack of grit and a level of talent I would describe as basic.. A secondary that when playing in nickel and dime situations doesn't have the horses to stop teams with good receiving depth. ....and here's one more....our QB is getting old...he can't sidestep trouble the way he used....he doesn't want to get killed behind what he knows is a substandard line.

You don't need stats to see this on your TV screen.

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That's probably because that's a completely,inaccurate take on how they have played. They played as string of great QBs and completely shut them down with games on the line and they have both run the ball well and protected well, and Brady has had another great year, so the "he's showing his age" meme is total Bullsh.t.

Ivan said:

That's probably because that's a completely,inaccurate take on how they have played. They played as string of great QBs and completely shut them down with games on the line and they have both run the ball well and protected well, and Brady has had another great year, so the "he's showing his age" meme is total Bullsh.t.

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I fully agree with your response, 100 percent.

I also understand the OP's concerns about certain issues that may rear their ugly heads again, but I don't believe that he's gone about describing those concerns in an effective enough manner. That's just my initial take on things, although I haven't read all 7 pages of the thread, so I could be wrong.

JMC00 said:

Want a cookie?

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I'll stop reading now because nothing will top that.

supafly said:

I fully agree with your response, 100 percent.

I also understand the OP's concerns about certain issues that may rear their ugly heads again, but I don't believe that he's gone about describing those concerns in an effective enough manner. That's just my initial take on things, although I haven't read all 7 pages of the thread, so I could be wrong.

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Sup, my take on the NFL this season and pretty much every season is that every team is flawed and has areas of weakness that can be exploited by the right team on the right day, not just the Patriots but that there is a significant contingent of Patriot fans who seemingly cannot help but to go directly into panic mode any time something isn't perfect. And when you get right down to it this season no team has played better all around football this year than the Patriots have, but rather than feel good about that these people want to scream and cry about how the sky is falling and there's no way they could ever beat ......... The Broncos, the Packers, the Seahawks etc etc etc if it came to that. And to a large degree the people doing it are exactly the same people who freaked out in September and wanted to blow the whole thing up because they suck and have absolutely no shot at going anywhere this season, and now rather than admit they were 100% wrong they are trying to pretend they were right and doing it all over again. It's bullsh.t IMO because every team has its issues and can be beat, and in truth there is no way they couldn't because the NFL is a league of attrition and every team suffers significant injuries and losses over the course of every season and has to adjust and adapt to those. Of course the Patriots can be beat and their weaker areas exploited, and the people who were acting as of they were locks to win it all are just as foolish as those now screaming the sky is falling n once again. They will have to play their best football the rest of the way and beat really good teams in a tournament to win it all, but the same goes for everyone else as well. As we now well know it's not just the Patriots who can be best but the unbeatable Broncos now have serious issues and will be in big trouble if they face bad weather or a great pass rush, and the unbeatable Packers will have to prove they can beat good teams on the road, and the unbeatable Seahawks will have to show that they can still win when opposing teams keep their unbeatable QB in the pocket or slow down their unstoppable pass rush etc etc etc.

The bottom line, at least for me, is that the Patriots have actually managed to put themselves in the best position they could have to try and win another ring, and if they play their best for three more games, 2 of which will be at home, then they have a great shot at another Lombardi. People should enjoy that and believe in a team that has done everything it can to gain the trust of its fans instead of sh.ttng themselves in public any time something isn't perfect, which IMO is exactly what these people do, because there is no such thing as prefect or a lock in the NFL and of Patriot fans haven't learned that lesson by now (e.g...2007) then they never will.

Aaron Rodgers had it right........ RELAX. Enjoy the ride while it lasts and hope for the best. But if they really need to panic please do so in their closets because doing iit publicly is getting really really old and tiresome. They were wrong in September about the abilities of this team and many gave up on them long ago, so we don't need any more screaming and crying from those who said they could never do it to begin with.

BTW, Miguel said on PFW in Progress on Wednesday that if the Pats retained Mankins, there would have been no way the Pats would have been able to trade for Ayers or Casisas and signed Blount because they would not have the cap space. He said that actually trading away Mankins did actually help the Pats' this year.