Overstating the Obvious

Clonamery said:

Sometimes things pass an "eye" test; sometimes things pass a "smell" test.

I take you (right or wrong) for an "eye" test kind of guy and the Jets/Ryan defenses pass.

For me, the Jets "smell" and are a big fail.

Click to expand...

This is the problem with the Ryan defense. It will produce some plays that look cool. (On top of that you have him talking like he is a bully facing a bunch of ****ies) But overall, what he sacrifices to make the plays he makes ends up being more detrimental than what he accomplishes. Sure, he can hold us to 17 in a game. He can also allow an average of 31.3 over four years including that game in order to do it.
He's a real life Rocky Balboa. Get the crap beaten out of you waiting to land that one big punch. Unfortunately for Rex, life isn't a movie, so there is no win at the end.

Rob0729 said:

The o-line issues are something to keep an eye on, but I think people are magnifying the problems. Even with the struggles in recent weeks, the Pats dominated games other than this current week.

Click to expand...

After they ditched that moving pieces OL they were doing in the 1st half, they gained 160 yards on 3 of the 5 drives in the 2nd and when that "big bad" jests DL needed to make a stop when the Pats got the ball back with 5 minutes to go they couldn't.

Only thing the jests D did in the 2nd half was get an INT gifted to them. I mean LaFell catches that ball if he is a foot closer to the middle of the field.

Like I've said in other threads Edelman and Connolly play they win by 14+. Hell if they would have just used the game plan they used in the 2nd half they probably win by 14. I mean I know they won by 1 point but if they wanted to they could have scored another TD at the end to make it 8 points.

AndyJohnson said:

This is the problem with the Ryan defense. It will produce some plays that look cool. (On top of that you have him talking like he is a bully facing a bunch of ****ies) But overall, what he sacrifices to make the plays he makes ends up being more detrimental than what he accomplishes. Sure, he can hold us to 17 in a game. He can also allow an average of 31.3 over four years including that game in order to do it.
He's a real life Rocky Balboa. Get the crap beaten out of you waiting to land that one big punch. Unfortunately for Rex, life isn't a movie, so there is no win at the end.

Click to expand...

I haven't seen much discussion of the fact that when it came down to the end of the game, the Jets couldn't stop the Pats' offense from converting on key 3rd downs when it counted, and the Pats were in gimme FG range. Even if the Jets had converted on their long FG attempt, the Pats were in position to win the game. To me, the real litmus test of a defense is whether it can get the other team off the field with the game on the line. Nothing else.

mayoclinic said:

I haven't seen much discussion of the fact that when it came down to the end of the game, the Jets couldn't stop the Pats' offense from converting on key 3rd downs when it counted, and the Pats were in gimme FG range. Even if the Jets had converted on their long FG attempt, the Pats were in position to win the game. To me, the real litmus test of a defense is whether it can get the other team off the field with the game on the line. Nothing else.

Click to expand...

Good point, and another big difference between BB and RR defenses over the years.

AndyJohnson said:

Not sure I understand your point. We play them twice a year and sometimes those games are tough. Just like sometimes our other 14 games are tough.
We have scored an average of 28.5 points a game against Rex Ryans Jets. Yes, some of those games have been tight, but its the NFL what do you expect? 1-7 with a few close games is not good.
Ryan has had 6 years to put a team together, and has failed.


Lame excuse. Counting accumulated stats to make an excuse for being better than your record, is a far cry from what a defense does in terms of allowing points, and taking the ball away. The performance on the field totally belies your opinion of that defense, as well as ours.


1-7. Please give me the list of all the teams that copied Rex Ryan to create a blueprint to beat the Patriots. They do not exist.
What you are trying to say is teams that play good defense beat us more often, which is correct, and that Rex Ryan plays good defense, which is not so correct, and therefore Rex Ryan beats the Patriots. It is ludicrous.

The Dolphins in the last 4 years are 2-6 against us, and have allowed only 224 points, 28 per game while the Jets are 1-7 and have allowed 250, 31.25 per game. So have the Dolphins showed the league the blueprint to beating the Patriots?

Click to expand...

I find folks on here get so hung up on semantic arguments and instead of taking a visual/gutteral big picture view.
If stats were the be all to end all...Fanduel would not be a profitable venture for its owners and Las Vegas would simply be thruway to California.

I'd be very surprised if collectively anyone doesn't believe that Rex has historically been successful against Brady. The blueprint itself you can only pull off if you have the personnel and coaching....like the Giants did....twice.

Even though our defense is a huge upgrade over previous years....our Offense is what still in the end wins us games more than not. Our defense is not stifling...it is not a shutdown defense. We do not dictate the flow of the game with it. Our D is good at adjusting to what the other team is dictating and minimizing damage. It's like a being a kid that gets pummeled by a bully with 15 punches in a row...gets bloodied...but is able to slip in a shot to the nose that ends the fight. The bully lost...but the kid paid for it.

Back in 2007 when the Pats played the Eagles and Baltimore....we won those games. But those games scared me...a team I viewed as a juggernaut had a few noticeable flaws. The secondary's deficiencies were major.

I see the same here...but the flaws have changed. An O-line...with a complete lack of grit and a level of talent I would describe as basic.. A secondary that when playing in nickel and dime situations doesn't have the horses to stop teams with good receiving depth. ....and here's one more....our QB is getting old...he can't sidestep trouble the way he used....he doesn't want to get killed behind what he knows is a substandard line.

You don't need stats to see this on your TV screen.

AndyJohnson said:

This is the problem with the Ryan defense. It will produce some plays that look cool. (On top of that you have him talking like he is a bully facing a bunch of ****ies) But overall, what he sacrifices to make the plays he makes ends up being more detrimental than what he accomplishes. Sure, he can hold us to 17 in a game. He can also allow an average of 31.3 over four years including that game in order to do it.
He's a real life Rocky Balboa. Get the crap beaten out of you waiting to land that one big punch. Unfortunately for Rex, life isn't a movie, so there is no win at the end.

Click to expand...

PPG Allowed by the NYJ under Ryan.
2009- 15
2010- 19
2011- 22
2012-23
2013-24
2014- 25

He started out like Rocky vs Apollo Creed and ended like Glass Joe.

Clonamery said:

Sometimes things pass an "eye" test; sometimes things pass a "smell" test.

I take you (right or wrong) for an "eye" test kind of guy and the Jets/Ryan defenses pass.

For me, the Jets "smell" and are a big fail.

Click to expand...

Definitely an eye test guy. Given a sufficient time to observe...the eyes don't lie.

mayoclinic said:

I haven't seen much discussion of the fact that when it came down to the end of the game, the Jets couldn't stop the Pats' offense from converting on key 3rd downs when it counted, and the Pats were in gimme FG range. Even if the Jets had converted on their long FG attempt, the Pats were in position to win the game. To me, the real litmus test of a defense is whether it can get the other team off the field with the game on the line. Nothing else.

Click to expand...

No of course you won't hear that the big bad jests D
couldnt come up with a stop in the last 5 minutes when the Pats took the ball and shoved it down their throat and ended the game because it doesn't fit the agenda of the chicken littles.

Rob0729 said:

I knew Deus would turn this thread into an "I told you so" about Mankins and Welker without actually bringing up their names specifically. He is too predictable.

I will say this.

• Watching Welker this year, he would be useless on the Pats right now because he is nearly useless with the Broncos and he is their primary slot receiver. Here he would have been fighting for reps with Edelman and we know who would win that battle.

Click to expand...

I feel FAR better on December 23rd 2014 looking ahead to these playoffs with Danny Amendola on our roster than I would with Wes Welker.

Slagathor said:

I find folks on here get so hung up on semantic arguments and instead of taking a visual/gutteral big picture view.
If stats were the be all to end all...Fanduel would not be a profitable venture for its owners and Las Vegas would simply be thruway to California.

Click to expand...

You are backward on this. A defense allowing points or taking the ball away is not 'stats' its production and success.

I'd be very surprised if collectively anyone doesn't believe that Rex has historically been successful against Brady. The blueprint itself you can only pull off if you have the personnel and coaching....like the Giants did....twice.

Click to expand...

Why would anyone opinion matter, when there are facts? How can you call 4-9 successful?
The Giants ABSOLUTELY, ENTIRELY, COMPLETELY, WITHOUT QUESTION did NOT follow a Rex Ryan blueprint.
This is what is wrong with your thinking. You think Rex Ryan = pass rush. While that really isn't even true, to think that any team that rushes the passer owes it to Rex Ryan is moronic. The Giants limited our offense in the first game because they had DL that won the one on one battles with our OL. Thats football. Thats not a blueprint. The second time was because Gronk was on one leg, Welker dropped the game winning pass, and our defense couldn't get off the field. Nothing about Ryan there.
You are just making stuff up now.

Even though our defense is a huge upgrade over previous years....our Offense is what still in the end wins us games more than not.

Click to expand...

Actually we win with both offense and defense, but lately it has been more defense.

Our defense is not stifling...it is not a shutdown defense. We do not dictate the flow of the game with it. Our D is good at adjusting to what the other team is dictating and minimizing damage. It's like a being a kid that gets pummeled by a bully with 15 punches in a row...gets bloodied...but is able to slip in a shot to the nose that ends the fight. The bully lost...but the kid paid for it.

Click to expand...

You cannot be watching games. You should. Our defense has allowed 1 TD in the second of the last 6 games.

Back in 2007 when the Pats played the Eagles and Baltimore....we won those games. But those games scared me...a team I viewed as a juggernaut had a few noticeable flaws. The secondary's deficiencies were major.

Click to expand...

Every team has flaws. If a 16-0 team with 2 sort of close losses scared you, what team wouldn't? Your standard is ridiculous. Everything perfect everygame, flawless team, total domination. Does not happen.

I see the same here...but the flaws have changed. An O-line...with a complete lack of grit and a level of talent I would describe as basic..

Click to expand...

Explain how they lack grit.
Explain how an OL that allowed 4 sacks in 8 games lacks BASIC talent.

A secondary that when playing in nickel and dime situations doesn't have the horses to stop teams with good receiving depth.

Click to expand...

1) We HAVE stopped those teams already
2) What team has 'the horses' you think we lack?

....and here's one more....our QB is getting old...he can't sidestep trouble the way he used....he doesn't want to get killed behind what he knows is a substandard line.

Click to expand...

Looks pretty F-ing good to me.

You don't need stats to see this on your TV screen.

Click to expand...

I look on my TV screen and I see them winning 10 of 11, 8 of them by 9 or more points, 6 of them by more than 3 TDs. I see them scoring 27 or more in 8 of those 11 games, and allowing less than 17 points in 4 of the last 5.
I see the best team in the NFL. You don't?
It would appear you want to find things to complain about with no context whatsoever.
This has turned from Yay I love Rex to OK Im ignoring the proof he sucks to the Patriots really suck they just hide it well.
I think we are done here.

Slagathor said:

Let me ask you a question. Did the flow or outcome of Sunday's game surprise you? Nobody came out of watching that game saying "gee....I'm surprised they played us so tight...." The Jets have an overall talent issue, especially at the most important position on the field. Stats don't tell the whole story. Rex, in coaching an average to below average team gives Brady and our O-line fits more than not.

I'm not a big stat acolyte...I leave that to the Manning cult. Those numbers don't tell the whole story.

Ryan's philosophy has not produced W's for the Jets but it has always provided a clear blueprint on how to beat the Pats.

Click to expand...

You are what your record says you are.

The ridiculous quotes from Landry and Pryor coming out of the Jets lockerroom the past two days "We are the best 3-12 team in NFL history", "We were so close in so many games, we could easily be 10-5" are rightfully being mocked across the nation.

Those are the quotes of Losers.

Style means nothing.

Slagathor said:

Definitely an eye test guy. Given a sufficient time to observe...the eyes don't lie.

Click to expand...

Then you need to see an optometrist

robertweathers said:

PPG Allowed by the NYJ under Ryan.
2009- 15
2010- 19
2011- 22
2012-23
2013-24
2014- 25

He started out like Rocky vs Apollo Creed and ended like Glass Joe.

Click to expand...

Its really comical. People talk like he is this defensive genius with elaborate schemes that strike fear into QBs and shut down offenses. Then you watch his team on the field, and you see:

They are well below average in rushing the passer.
They allow a lot of points.
They never take the ball away.
They lose. In fact, the deeper his imprint gets on his team and players, the more he loses.

Rex Ryan is a loser. Of that there is just no doubt.

AndyJohnson said:

Then you need to see an optometrist

Click to expand...

Bastard... ! Merry Christmas!

Slagathor said:

Bastard... ! Merry Christmas!

Click to expand...

That one was just too easy
Merry Christmas to you too.

mayoclinic said:

I haven't seen much discussion of the fact that when it came down to the end of the game, the Jets couldn't stop the Pats' offense from converting on key 3rd downs when it counted, and the Pats were in gimme FG range. Even if the Jets had converted on their long FG attempt, the Pats were in position to win the game. To me, the real litmus test of a defense is whether it can get the other team off the field with the game on the line. Nothing else.

Click to expand...

I agree, I also haven't seen much discussion of the fact that going into the game the big concern was their ability to stop the jets run game and they really came out strong against it. Wilfork had a great game and they basically showed they can shut down the run when they need to.

AndyJohnson said:

Its really comical. People talk like he is this defensive genius with elaborate schemes that strike fear into QBs and shut down offenses. Then you watch his team on the field, and you see:

They are well below average in rushing the passer.
They allow a lot of points.
They never take the ball away.
They lose. In fact, the deeper his imprint gets on his team and players, the more he loses.

Rex Ryan is a loser. Of that there is just no doubt.

Click to expand...

Which just underscores how badly the Patriots offense performed on Sunday.

Ivan said:

I agree, I also haven't seen much discussion of the fact that going into the game the big concern was their ability to stop the jets run game and they really came out strong against it. Wilfork had a great game and they basically showed they can shut down the run when they need to.

Click to expand...

+1.

That was the best and most active I have seen Vince Wilfork in several years (and I'm not even referencing the blocked FG).

Vince has truly become stronger, quicker and more agile. It was the best sign of the entire day.

shmessy said:

Which just underscores how badly the Patriots offense performed on Sunday.

Click to expand...

Meh. They struggled early. Sacked on 3rd down twice in the first 3 drives.
After that:

TD
Punt
Punt
FG on a 13 play 81 yard drive
TD
turnover
11 play clock killing drive

17 points which would have been at least 20 if not 24 if they needed them on the last drive in 7 drives is not that bad.
Not a great day, but hardly pathetic. Better communication in the OL and/or Connolly in there and they probably put up the normal 30.

shmessy said:

+1.

That was the best and most active I have seen Vince Wilfork in several years (and I'm not even referencing the blocked FG).

Vince has truly become stronger, quicker and more agile. It was the best sign of the entire day.

Click to expand...

Agree completely, Wilfork is all the way back IMO and it couldn't have come at a better time. He is to their DL what Revis is to the secondary, he makes everyone around him better and allows them to run all of the sub packages they want to run. Given the injuries they have had on the DL I honestly don't think they would have made the playoffs without him. IMO he's a Hall of Fame caliber player and we are really really lucky he is a Patriot.