Overstating the Obvious

I think it's gone unnoticed that yesterday's game was the type of game that usually knocks us out of the playoffs, except we actually came out of the game with the win.

This is a generalization that of course will have exceptions, but the general feeling I've had with the Patriots the past few years this is that they usually win in shootouts, or blowouts, but the dogfight games are the ones that we don't win. When the offense sputtered in the past years, you had that sinking feeling that the D couldn't keep them in the game and that they would inevitably lose.

Yesterday gave me confidence that, in a knife fight against a tough defense, this Patriots team can win. Not that they *will* win, because no game can predict the outcome of the next. But we know that they can win in a dogfight. Their defense and special teams can keep the field from tilting against them, and give a sputtering offense more possessions to right the ship. More times than not, I believe that the offense, for all of its warts and wrinkles, will not be held down for an entire 60 minutes.

The game was frustrating to watch, but that we came out with a win should mean something. That when the game is on the line, all of the units have the capability to contribute. Better to face the fire and pass that test now and be ready for the next when the games really count.

BradyManny said:

Deus, while I agree the OL is an area of concern, I do not agree about WR at this point. How do you not feel pretty good about our top 3 skill players in Gronk, Edelman, LaFell?

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I watch the games. I see what good teams with the right defensive strengths can do against them.

BradyManny said:

I don't think there's any mystery to it - when we block the other guys, we score.

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How to slow/stop the Patriots offense (2010-2014)

Rush Brady with 4 (if the rush can get there, the offense is in big trouble)
Flood middle of field with defenders
Limit YAC with good tackling

Patjew said:

"Slagathor" is an awesome screen name. Second best on the board?

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Wasn't there a dude with the handle "I Kill People" or something like that? Is that your #1?

Deus Irae said:

I watch the games. I see what good teams with the right defensive strengths can do against them.



How to slow/stop the Patriots offense (2010-2014)

Rush Brady with 4 (if the rush can get there, the offense is in big trouble)
Flood middle of field with defenders
Limit YAC with good tackling

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Those 3 things worry me. Especially the 2nd one. We simply can't throw downfield at all. A defense like Seattle's would obviously see this looking at film and feast on it.

Slagathor said:

I'm not breaking any new ground here, but as I look at the road ahead and also re-investigate previously failed Super Bowl campaigns....here's the not-so surprising conclusion I've uncovered...

The Patriots inability to protect TB against a strong pass rush, as well as it's inability to generate a pass rush and
take opposing QB's out of their comfort zones will be our undoing.....again.

The O-line is what we all know it is....but the defense cannot depend on our secondary to keep people covered for 10 plus seconds while our pass rush "tries" to get to the quarterback. With guys like Rodgers and Wilson...this will not work.

Also...offenses will just ignore Revis and Browner and pick at Ryan (who is horrific IMO) and Chung.

Much of this reminds me of the 2007 campaign...where as perfect as the regular season was...we saw the glaring weaknesses we had and hoped our high powered offense could overcome them.

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I DON'T CARE, I JUST CAN'T STAND IT ANYMORE!

Deus Irae said:

Nobody is reading into just one game. They are reading into 15 games this year, and years of history before that. You surely know that.

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Oh, you must be talking about the highest scoring team in the league who also has a great defense and a franchise that has won more Lombardi s than any other this century.

Deus Irae said:

2011 most certainly is not irrelevant, just as 2010, 2012 and 2013 are not irrelevant. And I'm sure you know that, as well.

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So if Welker had made the catch, then the OL blocking would have suddenly become more effective? If the defense had made ONE stop after the Welker "drop", would that have made the OL more effective?

The Pats lost those 2 superbowls, but the fact is there are several reasons that have nothing to do with how the OL blocked those days that helped cause those results, including Steven Neal's injury on the first series of the game. Despite any flaws we might have had on the OL in those 2 losing superbowls, making it seem like that was the ONLY reason we lost them is simply ridiculous. Just as ridiculous as trying to convince us that the team who, prior to this game, gave up the 3rd fewest sacks in the league, made a mistake in trading Logan Mankins despite the OVERWHELMING evidence against that position.

Taking this one game example as a representation of the OL's play is just as ridiculous as rating the Dallas OL on their Thanksgiving game against Philly. I mean didn't they give up 4 sacks and allow the Eagles to hold the top rushing game in the league to 88 yds. It was a horrendous OL performance.

I wonder if they had some dallas fan jackasses who posted on their boards what idiots their FO's were for building that OL. instead of getting more WR's

Deus Irae said:

Rush Brady with 4 (if the rush can get there, the offense is in big trouble)
Flood middle of field with defenders
Limit YAC with good tackling

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But this is a recipe for a win for any team in the league (except most teams don't have the personnel) - and it beat us back when we had the best deep threat in the game. It still comes down to OL play. If the OL holds, then our weapons are plenty good.

patfanken said:

So if Welker had made the catch, then the OL blocking would have suddenly become more effective? If the defense had made ONE stop after the Welker "drop", would that have made the OL more effective?

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Reality:

1. I have not claimed that the Patriots can't win the SB with this team
2. I have stated, multiple times, that the Patriots could have won in 2007 and 2011
3. I have stated, multiple times, that health is a large part of why this team's lost every recent year but 2010

and

None of the above removes the fact that this team has certain weaknesses that have not been successfully addressed from 2010-2014.

And, you, Ken, should damned well be smart enough about football to know that.

BradyManny said:

But this is a recipe for a win for any team in the league (except most teams don't have the personnel)

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No, it's not.

BradyManny said:

- and it beat us back when we had the best deep threat in the game.

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No, it didn't.

Deus Irae said:

No, it didn't.

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How so?

Deus Irae said:

I watch the games. I see what good teams with the right defensive strengths can do against them.



How to slow/stop the Patriots offense (2010-2014)

Rush Brady with 4 (if the rush can get there, the offense is in big trouble)
Flood middle of field with defenders
Limit YAC with good tackling

Click to expand...

This is really an in depth analysis. I bet this doesn't apply to every team. Nope, the rest flourish under these conditions. It just those perennial failures that suffer from this.

Yes because getting pressure with 4, having a good coverage scheme, and limiting yards after the catch only works against Brady.

Oh wait, it works against pretty much every QB.

Deus giving us that Phil Simms/Dan Dierdorf analysis.

rsd said:

I'd kill to have seen what you whiners were thinking prior to the SB with the Rams. As they say "That's Why They Play the Game". Let's get to the SB first before we hand the trophy over the the Seahawks

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I DON'T CARE, I CAN'T STAND IT!!!!!!

Deus Irae said:

Reality:

1. I have not claimed that the Patriots can't win the SB with this team
2. I have stated, multiple times, that the Patriots could have won in 2007 and 2011
3. I have stated, multiple times, that health is a large part of why this team's lost every recent year but 2010

and

None of the above removes the fact that this team has certain weaknesses that have not been successfully addressed from 2010-2014.

And, you, Ken, should damned well be smart enough about football to know that.

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I don't really disagree with with anything that you've written in THIS post (especially the part where you call me smart. ). However you've made it abundantly clear earlier in this thread that you STILL maintain that the Mankins deal was a mistake and try to use the Jets game as proof. When you KNOW that the pass protection has vastly improved this year over last....with out Mankins.

You've also alluded in your attempt to make your shaky point, that the losses in the 2 superbowls were directly linked to what you perceive as BB's blind spot on the OL (as well as WR).

I think its less a blind spot and about priorities. As BB began to rebuild the roster after the 2009 season, I would suggest, that he did it in stages. First he attacked the defensive backfield with his top talent. Then he went defense front 7 in with Jones and Hightower, OT with Solder to match with Volmer. Back to the DL with Easly, etc

The End result of the last 5 or 6 drafts is a much more talented and versatile DL/OLB's, More athletic and Flexible LB group, a deeper and more Talented DB group to which he added Revis and Browner. A much bigger faster, and younger WR corps, and 2 core RB's. I would suggest that THIS past draft he began the process of rebuilding the interior of the OL and got lucky with Stork and possibly Flemming. I think he will continue this rebuild with a high end G in the first, as well as other picks in hopes of upgrading the talent in the interior of the OL.

Brian Waters was the best RG we've had since Neal was at his peak, and he was here only that year. (2011) He haven't invested heavily in an OG since Mankins, so give what our draft position will be, now would seem to be a great time again.

Just a suggestion, DI. Think not only about the words to say, but the "tone" in which you say them.

BradyManny said:

How so?

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Because teams didn't play the same way precisely because of that deep threat.

patfanken said:

I don't really disagree with with anything that you've written in THIS post (especially the part where you call me smart. ). However you've made it abundantly clear earlier in this thread that you STILL maintain that the Mankins deal was a mistake and try to use the Jets game as proof. When you KNOW that the pass protection has vastly improved this year over last....with out Mankins.

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I didn't mention Mankins at all, and I noted that the problems have been since 2010 (Mankins was still on the team from 2010-2013). So, I'll stop reading your post here, since you're clearly inferring things that were nowhere implied.

Slagathor said:

We saw the glaring weaknesses we had and hoped our high powered offense could overcome them.

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I love it when people say they knew all the weaknesses of the 07 team.

Spare me.

Patstopia said:

This is really an in depth analysis. I bet this doesn't apply to every team. Nope, the rest flourish under these conditions. It just those perennial failures that suffer from this.

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Actually, it doesn't apply to every team. It doesn't apply to Dallas or Green Bay this year, for example. It didn't apply to the Broncos or Seattle last year.

There's 2 obvious examples from each of the past two seasons. There are plenty more. If you want to find them, start by looking at teams with legitimate outside threats at the WR position.

I don't think there's too much argument that a Wilson matchup would be problematic and that the Pats' pass protection and running game have been uneven at best.

This Pats D does, however, seem to be one that learns from its mistakes, as witnessed by the 22 total second half points it's conceded in the last six games, so I think they'd be ready for Rodgers.

As I said in another thread earlier today, the Lombardi means so much because it's so hard to win. It takes a great team and a little bit of luck.

For now, I'm worried about the Bills, unless the Bengals take care of business tonight...we all know how much Cincy can be relied on to come up large in a big, prime time game.