Who is your NFL MVP?

Has to be Manning no ? How can anyone else be considered?

I think it will be Rogers or Brady, with Rogers having a slight lead right now. Watt is great but if you are a MVP your impact should help lead your team to the playoffs. Rogers and Brady's impact is higher then Watt's.

That being said the media will probably vote Manning.

It's clearly Aaron Rodgers. He was extremely impressive when the Patriots played them consistently doing the right thing with his pin point precision. If Rodgers and Brady had swapped teams that game, the Patriots would have won.

ausbacker said:

I was on J.J. Watt early in the season. Nothing has changed my mind. He should be the MVP. His season has been outstanding.

Click to expand...

He's awesome., but if Watt were traded for Rodgers or Brady, which team improves?

I know it sucks that MVP has become MVQB, but that's just the nature of the beast. QBs are more valuable than any other position on the field by a substantial margin. It's the same for people who try to pretend that Revis or Gronk are the team MVP, which is nonsense. Take Brady away and this team is in a dog fight for the division. Take either Revis or Gronk away and maybe NE loses two more games.

It really is that simple. It isn't a case of people not being able to "see past the QB" or develop subtlety in how we watch the game, it's just the way the game is played now.

I'm all for splitting the two into different awards, MVQB or MVP or something to that effect.

Oswlek said:

He's awesome., but if Watt were traded for Rodgers or Brady, which team improves?

I know it sucks that MVP has become MVQB, but that's just the nature of the beast. QBs are more valuable than any other position on the field by a substantial margin. It's the same for people who try to pretend that Revis or Gronk are the team MVP, which is nonsense. Take Brady away and this team is in a dog fight for the division. Take either Revis or Gronk away and maybe NE loses two more games.

It really is that simple. It isn't a case of people not being able to "see past the QB" or develop subtlety in how we watch the game, it's just the way the game is played now.

I'm all for splitting the two into different awards, MVQB or MVP or something to that effect.

Click to expand...

I understand the need to clearly delineate best season from most valuable player and I agree with all your points it's more the position that Watt, outside of Gronk, has been the single most dominant player in the league this season. As you rightfully point out, the fact that it's a QB driven award really, really annoys me.

Tom Brady

Oswlek said:

............... Take Brady away and this team is in a dog fight for the division. ...................

Click to expand...

You can't say that with certainty. A dog fight? Maybe. Brady isn't the whole team. The Pats have a big lead in the division, and no doubt that lead would be much less without Brady. But to say it as you did infers that the defense and coaching is dependent on Brady, and that simply isn't true. Belichick is a master at molding people to fit his scheme. He did it with Brady didn't he? Give the man some credit. You might be right, but again, you might not.

phil112 said:

You can't say that with certainty. A dog fight? Maybe. Brady isn't the whole team. The Pats have a big lead in the division, and no doubt that lead would be much less without Brady. But to say it as you did infers that the defense and coaching is dependent on Brady, and that simply isn't true. Belichick is a master at molding people to fit his scheme. He did it with Brady didn't he? Give the man some credit. You might be right, but again, you might not.

Click to expand...

Of course I can. And doing so doesn't discredit Bill in any way.

Brady or Rodgers probably should get it, but if it was my call I'd give it to Gronk just because I think anytime a non-QB has a compelling case, they should get some kind of premium for being valuable at a position where it's more difficult to be valuable.

Oswlek said:

He's awesome., but if Watt were traded for Rodgers or Brady, which team improves?

I know it sucks that MVP has become MVQB, but that's just the nature of the beast. QBs are more valuable than any other position on the field by a substantial margin. It's the same for people who try to pretend that Revis or Gronk are the team MVP, which is nonsense. Take Brady away and this team is in a dog fight for the division. Take either Revis or Gronk away and maybe NE loses two more games.

It really is that simple. It isn't a case of people not being able to "see past the QB" or develop subtlety in how we watch the game, it's just the way the game is played now.

I'm all for splitting the two into different awards, MVQB or MVP or something to that effect.

Click to expand...

But the award has no definition. Most valuable to the team, to the league, to their position. The AP has never defined it, it's up to the voters to apply their own definition. It can and has at times been interpreted to be the best player in a given year. Otherwise only QBs could win, and players not even playing could win because they can "make a team great" with their value. Like with Manning a few years ago.

At the least I'd rather engage in concrete numbers. Saying that if player A was on team B then they would be better or whatever is a completely subjective game of make believe. I could say they wouldn't be as good. Numbers are at least more measurable than hypotheticals.

Bobsyouruncle said:

Saying that if player A was on team B then they would be better or whatever is a completely subjective game of make believe. I could say they wouldn't be as good.

Click to expand...

Sure, you could say that if you felt like being disingenuous. But if is a simple fact that great QBs are more valuable than excellence at any other position. Trying to pretend that a Watt for Rodgers swap wouldn't be a major coup for Houston is a fool's errand.

That said, I agree with you about how nebulous "value" really is. I backed AP in 2012 when he single handedly dragged a terrible QB, lousy receivers and decent defense to the playoffs. But I consider that season significantly more impressive than what Watt is doing this year. Houston's roster is quite a bit better than Minny's was and they are going to win two less games without sniffing a playoff appearance.

Oswlek said:

Sure, you could say that if you felt like being disingenuous. But if is a simple fact that great QBs are more valuable than excellence at any other position. Trying to pretend that a Watt for Rodgers swap wouldn't be a major coup for Houston is a fool's errand.

Click to expand...

Then Brady for Rodgers, or Montana for Manning. Each comparison is just as worthless. Backing up an opinion with an opinion. It's like saying Rodgers should be the MVP because he's best. Not because of something measurable like he has the most TDs or most wins. If the argument for your MVP is based on a hypothetical, unknowable metric you've invented then it's pretty weak IMO.

Bobsyouruncle said:

Then Brady for Rodgers, or Montana for Manning. Each comparison is just as worthless. Backing up an opinion with an opinion. It's like saying Rodgers should be the MVP because he's best. Not because of something measurable like he has the most TDs or most wins. If the argument for your MVP is based on a hypothetical, unknowable metric you've invented then it's pretty weak IMO.

Click to expand...

Agreed, it's all a bunch of nonsense. It's certainly not my "hypothetical, unknowable metric", I'm just stating the facts.

FWIW, I added a bit to the earlier comment when you were quoting it.

If Manning could manage to win it in 08 and 09 i'm sure they'll find a way to give it to him this year.

I would vote for Aaron Rodgers.

Gotta be Manning. What other quarterback could win the AFC West with that horrible group of receivers? It's a one man show.

Seriously though, I think it's a tossup between Brady and Rodgers due to the recent Rodgers stinker, but I still think Rodgers gets it, for whatever reason. Rodgers has the better offensive supporting cast, Brady has the better defense and coaching backing him up. Both have had some crap games and some unbelievable games. But Rodgers' absolute best was probably a little better than Brady's, so he gets it IMO.

I would personally vote Brady or Gronk simply because Gronk does so much. Don't understand the Watt talk. He's DPOY probably and is certainly having a great year but we are talking MOST VALUABLE PLAYER here. In terms of wins above replacement, putting in an average level talent to replace Watt would theoretically have little to no effect on the team's fortunes. Replace Brady or Rodgers with like... Joe Flacco... and you probably have a substantial change.

Only other thing I'll point out in this discussion: take away the theoretical 'who should win', 'what criteria are there', all that stuff...based on voter tendencies it's a two, MAYBE three horse race (Rodgers, Brady, possibly Manning). I think the Pats and Packers would need to lose--with at least a poor game by Rodgers--for Manning to get real consideration.

So that said, this 'race' all comes down to week 17: Detroit @ GB, Buffalo @NE. If the Lions somehow upset the Packers and the Pats roll, I think Brady wins. If the Packers win but Rodgers has a bad game and Brady demolishes the very, very good Buffalo defense I think Brady wins. If GB wins out and Rodgers doesn't have a stinker he wins (deservedly so, based on past precedence).

I don't think there are other scenarios out there. Watt's not winning it. They need another award for non-QB's.

It's a 4 man race with 2 games to go, with no clear winner, a running back, a defensive player, 2 QBs and no Peyton Manning.

Rodgers. He has pretty much carried that team all season and can guide his team to either the #1 seed or a first round bye if they win out.

KontradictioN said:

Rodgers. He has pretty much carried that team all season and can guide his team to either the #1 seed or a first round bye if they win out.

Click to expand...

Interestingly, there's a legitimate scenario in which Green Bay wins out and doesn't even get the bye. Of course, if involves Dallas also winning out, so I'll let you decide how likely it is, but it isn't completely out of the question.