2015 Draft Prospect Thread

mayoclinic said:

I assume you're talking about Marcus Peters?

http://blog.seattlepi.com/seattlesp...eters-choked-assistant-coach-during-argument/

Click to expand...

Yep. Very talented, but if that is true why would a team take a risk on that? Being immature and a stupid kid is one thing. Choking out a coach in the middle of practice means there is something mentally wrong with the kid. No way they make a first round investment in the kid only having to cut him on the spot if something like that happened again.

Nice Shane Ray comparisons to A young Terrell Suggs in that article. At least Ray isn't as ugly.

ESPN have moved Clemson DE Corey Crawford up to #62 on their big board (#179 at CBS). Had a look at him on youtube and whilst there's not a lot there, mainly an interception and a tfl, boy does he look a lot like Chandler Jones in terms of build. His bio has him at 6-5, 275lb but he looks leaner than that with long arms. He also looks athletic for that size. It should be noted however that he's been unproductive in terms of sacks with only two on the year.
Below is a pre-season scouting report from NFL Draft Scout.

http://www.nfldraftscout.com/ratings/dsprofile.php?pyid=106477&draftyear=2015&genpos=DE

I also think we should be talking about Mario Edwards a little more than we are. Again, unproductive in terms of sacks but he's not really used as an out and out pass rusher by FSU and he's only a junior but whilst he doesn't have the length BB normally likes for his EDGE players, Edwards fits the Patriots really well in other areas. He's got very good COD quickness for his size (fluctuates between 270-300b), the athleticism to drop into a short zone coverage, FSU has lined this 300lber at OLB at times, and he has the versatility to play at the 3,5 and 7 techs.

CBS currently have him as a mid-second rounder. If that's where he's graded on draft day, should he declare, I can definitely see him as the type of prospect that BB trades back out of the first for. He fits that prototype as a prospect with mainly first round abilities but falls for some reason - in Edwards' case, a lack of pass rush productivity. I can easily see Edwards as the new Nink.

Just realised that Corey Crawford accepted an invite to the Senior Bowl so we'll be able to see him there.

manxman2601 said:

I also think we should be talking about Mario Edwards a little more than we are. Again, unproductive in terms of sacks but he's not really used as an out and out pass rusher by FSU and he's only a junior but whilst he doesn't have the length BB normally likes for his EDGE players, Edwards fits the Patriots really well in other areas. He's got very good COD quickness for his size (fluctuates between 270-300b), the athleticism to drop into a short zone coverage, FSU has lined this 300lber at OLB at times, and he has the versatility to play at the 3,5 and 7 techs.

CBS currently have him as a mid-second rounder. If that's where he's graded on draft day, should he declare, I can definitely see him as the type of prospect that BB trades back out of the first for. He fits that prototype as a prospect with mainly first round abilities but falls for some reason - in Edwards' case, a lack of pass rush productivity. I can easily see Edwards as the new Nink.

Click to expand...

How do you think Edwards compares to Marcus Hardison?

A DE to mirror Chandler Jones and eventually succeed Ninkovich would be very high on my wish list. I think Nink and Ayers can provide great rotational depth. But ideally I'd love to get another guy who has the following capabilities:

1. Able to play DE in a 4 man front in base or sub
2. Able to play 3-4 DE at times
3. Able to stand up in a 3-4 at times
4. Able to drop into zone coverage
5. Able to move inside at times on sub packages

There are few players who can do all of those things. Jones is one of them. Most guys big enough to do #2 and #5 effectively aren't mobile enough to stand up or quick enough off the edge to play 4-3 DE. Guys who potentially interest me for that role include:

- Danielle Hunter, LSU. Would need to bulk up a bit, but very long and fluid. Reminds me of Chandler Jones. Has played inside at times for LSU.
- Alvin Dupree. Probably not strong enough, though Mark Swoops has said he believes Dupree is capable of playing 3-4 DE.
- Dante Fowler. See Alvin Dupree.
- Shawn Oakman.
- DeForest Buckner. Not sure he's quick enough to be effective in a 4-3 edge role, or mobile enough standing up, but I'm intrigued.
- Arik Armstead. See DeForest Buckner.
- Preston Smith. Not sure he's fluid or athletic enough to play in space.
- Marcus Hardison.
- Mario Edwards.
- Haven't watched Corey Crawford, but he has intriguing length and size.

Most guys are either too immobile to move in space effectively and/or lack the speed to come off the edge, or aren't strong enough to anchor effectively.

I haven't studied Edwards extensively, but what I have seen of him has been overshadowed by Eddie Goldman (who was athletic enough to play DE for FSU last year). Matt Miller had this to say about Edwards recently:

Mario Edwards is uniquely athletic for his size and definitely pops off the screen as a player who should dominate games. And then you wait for him to show up and take over the offensive line and he doesn't. And when evaluating defensive linemen, that's a major red flag for me.

Edwards isn't physically like Ra'Shede Hageman, but they remind me of each other in that their physique leads you to believe they'll be this world-beater of a player, but their production and in-game impact don't match up with the potential of their athleticism.

Edwards is now outside my first round and is moving down quickly into mid-Day 2.

Click to expand...

http://bleacherreport.com/articles/2289090-2015-nfl-draft-matt-millers-scouting-notebook-for-week-14

Edwards has certainly been on my watch list, but right now he's someone I'd consider in the 2nd half of round 2. But I'll be intrigued to study him more and see how he performs in the pre-draft season.

A healthy Dominique Easley can probably do most of the things listed above, but he is somewhat limited by his length, and I want him available for interior pressure.

Good question.

If I was GM of a team that played mostly base, either 3-4 or 4-3, I would go for Hardison. I think he has the potential to be a better pass rushing End and much better length.

However, with one caveat, his lack of length, I think BB would prefer Edwards. He has much more, much better experience, he's shown he can play lighter or at 300lb and is the guy FSU use to scheme, which is why I don't accept Matt Millers's assessment. Edwards is the guy who spies, plays the option etc - another reason I think BB would like him. He, not really a starting 5-tech or 3-tech but he's someone who can play all the roles you mention in a sub defense like ours.

With his name being linked to us in quite a few media mocks. What is everyone's consensus on the Todd Gurley pick as far as fit for this team?

The 1st round RB discussion is an interesting one. It seems to have worked out quite well for the Packers with Lacy. Giving them a dynamic player to take some pressure off Rogers and to balance their attack.

Or are we fine with Gray, Blount, White?

I'm just not sure about him as a 1st round pick to be honest.

jsull87 said:

With his name being linked to us in quite a few media mocks. What is everyone's consensus on the Todd Gurley pick as far as fit for this team?

The 1st round RB discussion is an interesting one. It seems to have worked out quite well for the Packers with Lacy. Giving them a dynamic player to take some pressure off Rogers and to balance their attack.

Or are we fine with Gray, Blount, White?

I'm just not sure about him as a 1st round pick to be honest.

Click to expand...

I'd personally never spend a 1st on a RB. And I like Tevin Coleman the best of any back in this class. I also like the kid from Miami, Johnson. But even in the 2nd I have other areas I'd prioritize and value much higher.

manxman2601 said:

Good question.

If I was GM of a team that played mostly base, either 3-4 or 4-3, I would go for Hardison. I think he has the potential to be a better pass rushing End and much better length.

However, with one caveat, his lack of length, I think BB would prefer Edwards. He has much more, much better experience, he's shown he can play lighter or at 300lb and is the guy FSU use to scheme, which is why I don't accept Matt Millers's assessment. Edwards is the guy who spies, plays the option etc - another reason I think BB would like him. He, not really a starting 5-tech or 3-tech but he's someone who can play all the roles you mention in a sub defense like ours.

Click to expand...

Good thoughts. I think that's going to be an important issue to tease out.

With "sub" being used more and more and probably becoming 75-80% of the dominant front, I want to make sure that any lineman fits in sub first, and not just as an interior pass rusher. That tends to favor more mobile guys like Ninkovich and Ayers, with Jones being a bit less mobile but still quite versatile. I'm not sure if Edwards at 280#, or Buckner, or Oakman, is able to play that role effectively vs. someone like Danielle Hunter or Bud Dupree or Dante Fowler, who would excel in that role. I don't know the answer, but it's a discussion that I think we'll be having a lot between now and the draft, and I think the kind of traits that you described will be an important part of evaluating any potential fits.

It's partly because of this uncertainty that I have trouble ranking the DEs. Grid talks about Lion Ends, Dragon Ends, and Flankers. Hunter/Dupree/Fowler and maybe Calhoun are at the top of my Dragons, with Noah Spence as a wild card because of his off-field issues and lack of development and Bernardrick McKinney as a Flanker who can also be a Midfielder and potentially a Dragon End. Oakman, Edwards, Buckner, Amstead and Hardison are more Lion End types. The ideal Pats' end probably fits somewhere in between the two, as I've described above.

mayoclinic said:

Good thoughts. I think that's going to be an important issue to tease out.

With "sub" being used more and more and probably becoming 75-80% of the dominant front, I want to make sure that any lineman fits in sub first, and not just as an interior pass rusher. That tends to favor more mobile guys like Ninkovich and Ayers, with Jones being a bit less mobile but still quite versatile. I'm not sure if Edwards at 280#, or Buckner, or Oakman, is able to play that role effectively vs. someone like Danielle Hunter or Bud Dupree or Dante Fowler, who would excel in that role. I don't know the answer, but it's a discussion that I think we'll be having a lot between now and the draft, and I think the kind of traits that you described will be an important part of evaluating any potential fits.

It's partly because of this uncertainty that I have trouble ranking the DEs. Grid talks about Lion Ends, Dragon Ends, and Flankers. Hunter/Dupree/Fowler and maybe Calhoun are at the top of my Dragons, with Noah Spence as a wild card because of his off-field issues and lack of development and Bernardrick McKinney as a Flanker who can also be a Midfielder and potentially a Dragon End. Oakman, Edwards, Buckner, Amstead and Hardison are more Lion End types. The ideal Pats' end probably fits somewhere in between the two, as I've described above.

Click to expand...

I can't believe I left Owawagbe Odighizuwa out of this discussion, because he could very well be that guy who fits in between. Or he doesn't fit at all. I'm not sure which, though I know Manx has an opinion.

There's an new draft site up which ranks Odighizuwa #10 overall on their big board, and #4 among EDGE players:

http://www.bigboarddraft.com/#!big-board/c12yw

Their profile on Odighizuwa:

Owamagbe Odighizuwa, UCLA - EDGE - #94 RS Sr
HeightL 6'3" Weight: 270 lbs

Scouting Report

Strengths: Owamagbe Odighizuwa (Oh-wa-MAH-bay Oh-DIGGY-zoo-wah) is a long athletic EDGE rusher with scary physical tools. Odighizuwa has incredible burst off the edge and quick hands to get by defenders and isn't limited to using a speed rush as his bull rush is very impressive as well. Odighizuwa is equally effective defending the run and rushing the passer. He has the athleticism and size to play DE in either a 3-4 or a 4-3. He is a we'll rounded prospect with room to be even better.

Projetion: Early 1st round.

Click to expand...

Maybe this actually IS Manx's site. TJ Clemmings is rated #15 overall, Maxx Williams 24, Bud Dupree #25, and DeAndre Smelter #36 overall.

Profile from the same site on DeAndre Smelter:

DeAndre Smelter, Georgia Tech - WR - #15 Sr
Height: 6'3" Weight: 222 lbs.

Scouting Report:

Strengths: Silky smooth athlete that can cut on a dime, change of direction skills are incredibly impressive for his size. Physical route runner that uses his big frame to his advantage to create separation. Very good blocker in Georgia Tech's defense, willing to body defenders all the way down field if he needs to. Sneakily athletic due to long stride length that can seemingly blow the top of the defense with a step.

Projection: 1st-2nd Round.

Click to expand...

http://www.bigboarddraft.com/#!deandre-smelter/cu41

There's more on Smelter on the profile notes.

mayoclinic said:

I can't believe I left Owawagbe Odighizuwa out of this discussion, because he could very well be that guy who fits in between. Or he doesn't fit at all. I'm not sure which, though I know Manx has an opinion.

There's an new draft site up which ranks Odighizuwa #10 overall on their big board, and #4 among EDGE players:

http://www.bigboarddraft.com/#!big-board/c12yw

Their profile on Odighizuwa:


Maybe this actually IS Manx's site. TJ Clemmings is rated #15 overall, Maxx Williams 24, Bud Dupree #25, and DeAndre Smelter #36 overall.

Click to expand...

3rd round grade on Terry Williams too. But...If it was mine they'd all be higher

Just a further thought on the ideal player for a sub package. The 'Nink' type end guy who could be an athletic one like a Bud Dupree is certainly one direction but we've started running lighter three man fronts. If you say that Easley at NT and Chandler Jones at RE are already there for these fronts then that's where I envisage Hardison, Odhigizuwa and Mario Edwards fitting really well as the LE in that formation. Oakman as well would fit obviously.

jsull87 said:

With his name being linked to us in quite a few media mocks. What is everyone's consensus on the Todd Gurley pick as far as fit for this team?

The 1st round RB discussion is an interesting one. It seems to have worked out quite well for the Packers with Lacy. Giving them a dynamic player to take some pressure off Rogers and to balance their attack.

Or are we fine with Gray, Blount, White?

I'm just not sure about him as a 1st round pick to be honest.

Click to expand...

mayoclinic said:

I'd personally never spend a 1st on a RB. And I like Tevin Coleman the best of any back in this class. I also like the kid from Miami, Johnson. But even in the 2nd I have other areas I'd prioritize and value much higher.

Click to expand...

I can easily see Gurley being a Pats pick in the first. But, I have pretty much fallen in love with Coleman, I almost prefer him to Gurley and would perfectly content if they drafted him in the first (although I probably wouldn't if pushed).

manxman2601 said:

3rd round grade on Terry Williams too. But...If it was mine they'd all be higher

Just a further thought on the ideal player for a sub package. The 'Nink' type end guy who could be an athletic one like a Bud Dupree is certainly one direction but we've started running lighter three man fronts. If you say that Easley at NT and Chandler Jones at RE are already there for these fronts then that's where I envisage Hardison, Odhigizuwa and Mario Edwards fitting really well as the LE in that formation. Oakman as well would fit obviously.

Click to expand...

And DeForest Bucker, if that's what you want to do. OTOH, with a 4 man front in a 4-2-5/2-4-5 hybrid then you need someone with more run-stopping power inside to complement Easley, and more of a "Dragon" end guy like Dupree, Folwer, Hunter or Noah Spence. That's where I see someone like Eddie Goldman being a great fit because of his combination of run-stopping ability and penetration. So a lot to my mind depends on what you want to optimize.

Some good matchups to keep an eye on in bowl games. Malcolm Brown vs Arkansas big line. Want to see if Armstead and Bucker go against FSU's interior of; Erving, Jackson and Matias.

I am not familiar with the terms Lion and Dragon, but I assume a dragon is someone that can move from DE to OLB and a Lion moves from DE to DT? If I am wrong I apologize. I have not been impressed with Edwards any of the 6 times I have watched him. He is slow out of his stance and does not seem to disengage very well. He seems to lose track of the ball during the play.

I like Hardison much more than Edwards and I think Hardison could be had later in the draft 3rd round rather than 2nd. Some later round folks that I am very intrigued with that would fit into our sub packages are Tony Washington DE/OLB and Xzavier ****son DE/DT/OLB/MLB (I think he is one of the handful in the draft that could play any of the positions, although his coverage skills are lacking.

Players that I have become infatuated with and think could fit after a year or 2 are Mike Reilly, Andre Munroe, Andrew Hudson and BJ Larson. I am bringing up later round folks because I think that the early rounds should be devoted to offense unless we have a shot at Goldman.

dliverey said:

I am not familiar with the terms Lion and Dragon, but I assume a dragon is someone that can move from DE to OLB and a Lion moves from DE to DT?

Click to expand...

You got it, Bro.

I introduced those terms that Mayo was kind enough to introduce here in order to better define what Roles Players & Prospects might optimally be considered for. With some Defensive Ends weighing as little as 250 or so and some weighing almost 350 ~ and especially with Defenses everywhere rapidly evolving into Hybrids, which in turn compels many Players to play different Roles within different Alignments ~ it seems increasingly futile and indeed confusing, in my opinion, to stick with rote terms like "Defensive End" and "Defensive Tackle".

This is approximately, by Height & Weight, how I break it down, with approximate Roles:


6 feet 1 2 3 4 5 6
260 D D D D D D
270
280 W W W L L L
290 W W W L L L
300 W W W L L L
310
320 G G G Y Y Y
330 G G G Y Y Y

D = Dragon End ~ usually DE in a 43 & "OLB" in a 34
W= Wolf Tackle ~ usually 3 Tech in a 43 & DE in a 34
L = Lion End ~ usually 3 Tech in a 43 & DE in a 34
G = Grizzly Tackle ~ usually DT in a 43 & Nose Guard in a 34
Y= Yetti Tackle ~ Wherever the phuque he wants!!

Attaching "End" or "Tackle" to any of these terms isn't necessary, but I do so to help with Translation.

Apologies for the hideous quality of the Chart ~ I'm much better on Excel, I assure you.

Off The Grid said:

You got it, Bro.

I introduced those terms that Mayo was kind enough to introduce here in order to better define what Roles Players & Prospects might optimally be considered for. With some Defensive Ends weighing as little as 250 or so and some weighing almost 350 ~ and especially with Defenses everywhere rapidly evolving into Hybrids, which in turn compels many Players to play different Roles within different Alignments ~ it seems increasingly futile and indeed confusing, in my opinion, to stick with rote terms like "Defensive End" and "Defensive Tackle".

This is approximately, by Height & Weight, how I break it down, with approximate Roles:


6 feet 1 2 3 4 5 6
260 D D D D D D
270
280 W W W L L L
290 W W W L L L
300 W W W L L L
310
320 G G G Y Y Y
330 G G G Y Y Y

D = Dragon End ~ usually DE in a 43 & "OLB" in a 34
W= Wolf Tackle ~ usually 3 Tech in a 43 & DE in a 34
L = Lion End ~ usually 3 Tech in a 43 & DE in a 34
G = Grizzly Tackle ~ usually DT in a 43 & Nose Guard in a 34
Y= Yetti Tackle ~ Wherever the phuque he wants!!

Attaching "End" or "Tackle" to any of these terms isn't necessary, but I do so to help with Translation.

Apologies for the hideous quality of the Chart ~ I'm much better on Excel, I assure you.

Click to expand...

You could do an Excel sheet, paste it into Paint or a similar program, and then attach it. [That's how I did my playoff probability chart a few weeks back.]

dliverey said:

I am not familiar with the terms Lion and Dragon, but I assume a dragon is someone that can move from DE to OLB and a Lion moves from DE to DT? If I am wrong I apologize. I have not been impressed with Edwards any of the 6 times I have watched him. He is slow out of his stance and does not seem to disengage very well. He seems to lose track of the ball during the play.

I like Hardison much more than Edwards and I think Hardison could be had later in the draft 3rd round rather than 2nd. Some later round folks that I am very intrigued with that would fit into our sub packages are Tony Washington DE/OLB and Xzavier ****son DE/DT/OLB/MLB (I think he is one of the handful in the draft that could play any of the positions, although his coverage skills are lacking.

Players that I have become infatuated with and think could fit after a year or 2 are Mike Reilly, Andre Munroe, Andrew Hudson and BJ Larson. I am bringing up later round folks because I think that the early rounds should be devoted to offense unless we have a shot at Goldman.

Click to expand...

I'm with you on Monroe. Guy destroyed Scherff.

I didn't really watch too much of Mario Edwards but I liked his strength and athleticism, particularly his ability to change direction in space. I just felt that he fits the new scheme particularly well and seems to be a person that can be relied upon to be scheme sound, something that will be important for any defensive player trying to fit into this Patriots defense. I also think his unproductively as a pass rusher is less important for someone like BB than for many other teams. Having said that, I've never watched Edwards and thought wow! He's a head over heart prospect for me - I just think his versatility makes him a good BB prospect.

Marcus Hardison on the other hand is a 'heart' prospect, so I personally would prefer him over Edwards, the question is, would BB?

Andre Monroe has nine sacks this year. His last six sacks came against the following:

Ohio State - 2 sacks
Wisconsin
Penn State
Michigan State
Michigan

He also gave Scherff a hell of a time in the Iowa game with a tfl, a pressure that led to a sack and two near sacks. It's not as though Monroe pads his stats against weaker opposition.