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Pats players agree: Collins is a freak


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It looks like he mistimed his leap and STILL blocked the kick.
 
51 teams passed on Jamie Collins before the Pats picked him..
 
I really have no idea where I rank on the "mean to deus" scale I just mock him from time to time because he is so unbelievably arrogant. Deus likes. channel Felger and play contrarian and that tends to come with a price, especially since he rarely discusses bbc.co anything bbc.co and really only engages to argue and prove he is right, and I have never seen him admit he was wr wr wr wro wro wrong.

There. I said it and I am still alive.

[/QUOTE]
You are so much more openly insulting of Deus than I am.. why don't you have Christiancat replying to every one of your posts regarding Deus to scold you for being mean to "one of the nicest posters on the board"? :)


I think I just channeled mgteich



Did you know that when you try to swipe Deus predictive text keeps changing it b to Fetus? I almost just left it that way.

Jesus I love Swype to text.
 
Collins is turning into the type of player that other fan bases go "why the **** didn't we draft that guy" when talking about him.

It's pretty clear that if Collins had been in a functional college program he would have been a big name player. As is, though, his development is pretty incredible: from high school quarterback to having his position changed every year on a hapless, winless small-conference team, to wearing the green dot and making plays all over the field as a 2nd-year pro. And still improving, fast. :D

For all that we rightly bemoan a string of 2nd-round Pats busts, the fact is they also have some spectacular round-2 triumphs in Collins, Gronkowski and Vollmer. (When you hear the stat that the league only hits on half of 2nd rounders, remember that a player like Pat Chung counts as a hit. Gronk et al are off the charts.)
 
It's pretty clear that if Collins had been in a functional college program he would have been a big name player. As is, though, his development is pretty incredible: from high school quarterback to having his position changed every year on a hapless, winless small-conference team, to wearing the green dot and making plays all over the field as a 2nd-year pro. And still improving, fast. :D

For all that we rightly bemoan a string of 2nd-round Pats busts, the fact is they also have some spectacular round-2 triumphs in Collins, Gronkowski and Vollmer. (When you hear the stat that the league only hits on half of 2nd rounders, remember that a player like Pat Chung counts as a hit. Gronk et al are off the charts.)

Time for a rant.

The media, and much of this board, has the expectation that every draft pick should become a star. That's not only unrealistic - and draft experts like Baltimore assistant GM Eric DeCosta openly acknowledge that the draft is a crapshoot, even for the experts doing their homework and with all the resources available to them - but also unfeasible. If teams hit on a higher percentage of their draft picks they wouldn't be able to afford keeping all of them beyond their rookie contracts, due to the salary cap. Good teams acknowledge this uncertainty and plan for it. BB trades down; the Ravens let FAs go when the market overvalues them, and use the extra comp picks to pipeline more players. Extra draft picks are very valuable - they give teams the ability to move around freely in the draft, and to take some calculated risks. Recently BB has developed a practice of acquiring low-cost veterans by exchanging draft picks rather than giving them up, so that he retains the same number of "chances" in the draft.

Having a low-cost guy on his rookie deal produce is a GM's dream. The converse is having a high-priced player who doesn't produce. Those are killers. So smart teams like the Pats are very careful who they pay big money to, especially external FAs with whom they don't have direct experience.

People bemoan guys like Tavon Wilson and Duron Harmon as "busts". There are lots of ways of measuring busts. These guys have not developed into starters, or major rotational guys, so they have not met hopes in some respects. But they are not unproductive. Both are good STers, and both have performed well in limited duty this year, including yesterday. One way to assess the "success" of a draft pick is whether they get a 2nd deal from the team, and both Harmon and Wilson are likely to move on after their rookie deals expire. (Aside: the Pats have drafted quite well by this standard.) But getting decent depth and ST production from the back end of the roster at low cost isn't to be despised. There are many players taken around the same time as those guys who have already been jettisoned by their original teams. Even Josh Boyce is still on the PS, has won practice player of the week awards, and provides reserve depth at minimal cost, with some (albeit long shot) potential to develop into something more. Guys like Fleming and Stork, who become significant contributors as rookies, are gold.

And then there are guys like Collins, Gronk and Vollmer - guys who play at a pro bowl level early into their rookie deals. Those guys are lottery winners. Collins is Gronk on defense - a freak who teams have to account for on every single pay, with the ability to blow things up at any time. He can do more things well than almost any other player in the league, and he is developing football intelligence, consistency and sound technique. If he makes another leap he will be a legitimate candidate in the discussion of best defensive players not named JJ Watt. The DBs say that he could probably play safety, he could be a 10+ sack/year guy if kept on the edge and allowed to rush, he can match up with TEs and RBs, he can play MLB. He can block kicks. He's a 4 down player. Hell, he could probably be a terrific move TE if the Pats wanted to use him there. No defensive player other than Watt has as much freakish ability as Collins. And yet even as recently as 2 months ago people were talking about him as a "bust", a "bad draft pick", and "slow". Which simply underscores how inept most people are at assessing talent and production.
 
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It looks like he mistimed his leap and STILL blocked the kick.

He did indeed, look how high up he is compared to where the ball is here (great picture):

yrys73gfKtcOFb1ErtQru5MPk5JtB1AjSlmOkrQe4go.png
 

Awesome. I wish the FG block had another angle to show just how high off the ground he is when making that swat. It's some NBA level swattage. For what it's worth, he had the 91 of his jersey at ~ head height of #74, who is listed as 6'6" on the 'Phins website (granted he's not standing perfectly straight up, and this is viewed at an angle, etc.).

Edit, haha look just above this post for the picture that I was looking for :D Thanks @Big-T
 
Time for a rant.

People bemoan guys like Tavon Wilson and Duron Harmon as "busts". There are lots of ways of measuring busts. These guys have not developed into starters, or major rotational guys, so they have not met hopes in some respects. But they are not unproductive. Both are good STers, and both have performed well in limited duty this year, including yesterday. One way to assess the "success" of a draft pick is whether they get a 2nd deal from the team, and both Harmon and Wilson are likely to move on after their rookie deals expire. (Aside: the Pats have drafted quite well by this standard.) But getting decent depth and ST production from the back end of the roster at low cost isn't to be despised. There are many players taken around the same time as those guys who have already been jettisoned by their original teams. Even Josh Boyce is still on the PS, has won practice player of the week awards, and provides reserve depth at minimal cost, with some (albeit long shot) potential to develop into something more. Guys like Fleming and Stork, who become significant contributors as rookies, are gold.

When I read this it makes me Wonder, do Patriots FO use the same Trade value charts as the rest of us earthlings, or do BB have hes own tabel. The old chart is made before the salary cap area and the way BB moves Down to get cheap backups / ST value Guys makes me Wonder.
 
Awesome. I wish the FG block had another angle to show just how high off the ground he is when making that swat. It's some NBA level swattage. For what it's worth, he had the 91 of his jersey at ~ head height of #74, who is listed as 6'6" on the 'Phins website (granted he's not standing perfectly straight up, and this is viewed at an angle, etc.).

Edit, haha look just above this post for the picture that I was looking for :D Thanks @Big-T

#74, Jason Fox is stood upright and is listed at 6'6" and Collins has half of his torso above that guys head! It looks like his feet are level with Fox's knees too.
 
When I read this it makes me Wonder, do Patriots FO use the same Trade value charts as the rest of us earthlings, or do BB have hes own tabel. The old chart is made before the salary cap area and the way BB moves Down to get cheap backups / ST value Guys makes me Wonder.

The trade value guide is only a rough guide, and most draft people argue that it's very out of date and doesn't reflect current realities. A trade is basically what you can get someone else to give, and it varies wildly. We've seen teams overspend tremendously when they covet a prospect, and other cases where the cost seems quite reasonable. BB sometimes seems to be willing to accept less than "book value" because he values trading down, and that's one way of suckering others to play.
 
Time for a rant.

The media, and much of this board, has the expectation that every draft pick should become a star.
...
And yet even as recently as 2 months ago people were talking about him as a "bust", a "bad draft pick", and "slow". Which simply underscores how inept most people are at assessing talent and production.

I feel like the unreal expectations you write of can also be applied to a guy like Devin McCourty. Some folks view him as a failure because he wound up switching to S from CB.

Hard to see how a guy can exceed the expectations of your typical late 1st round pick by much more of a margin than DMC has.

Also, as an aside, wow was the 201o draft loaded! Patriots made out like crazy getting McCourty & Gronk, (-nevermind- -Hernandez-) and still there were incredible players like Jimmy Graham, Antonio Brown, Navarro Bowman and Geno Atkins lurking in the later rounds, to say nothing of how good some of the guys in the top of the 1st round are too.
 
#74, Jason Fox is stood upright and is listed at 6'6" and Collins has half of his torso above that guys head! It looks like his feet are level with Fox's knees too.

It'd be awesome if the ESPN sportscience folks did an analysis of this play!
 
People bemoan guys like Tavon Wilson and Duron Harmon as "busts"

The fuming over Harmon in particular is a head-scratcher. He was picked at the very end of round 3 last year and is now the top backup to McCourty. What's the problem?

As for "value," check this out:

- "Inexcusable reach" Duron Harmon has 3 career interceptions and 5 passes defended.
- The 5 DBs selected after him have combined for 1 career interception and 6 passes defended.
 
The fuming over Harmon in particular is a head-scratcher. He was picked at the very end of round 3 last year and is now the top backup to McCourty. What's the problem?

As for "value," check this out:

- "Inexcusable reach" Duron Harmon has 3 career interceptions and 5 passes defended.
- The 5 DBs selected after him have combined for 1 career interception and 6 passes defended.

I think Harmon and Wilson both fall into the "low cost depth and ST" category. They are fine as long as their cost is low. They are upgradeable. You don't want them on the field for a ton of snaps if possible. But they serve a role.

Beyond their rookie deals is another matter. Keeping positional cost down is important. The Pats should keep a pipeline of day 3 guys to provide competition, and if someone outperforms them, great. But they are not to be despised.

As I mentioned, one measure of "success" (a pretty high one) is whether a player earns a 2nd contract wit the team - does the team think highly enough of him that they will pay to retain him. Some guys who have met that threshold:

2008: Jerod Mayo, Matt Slater
2009: Pat Chung* (not initially retained, but later brought back), Sebastian Vollmer, Julian Edelman.
2010: [Devin McCourty - a high priority for this year], Rob Gronkowski, Aaron Hernandez (a mistake for personal reasons, but not because of his pay)
2011: Nate Solder* (club exercised his 5th year option; contract discussions pending), Marcus Cannon; Shane Vereen and Stevan Ridley are up also potential candidates

For 2012 I think it is likely that Chandler Jones, Dont'a Hightower and Nate Ebner will get 2nd contracts. Alfonzo Dennard is on the fence.

If the Pats end up getting solid production out of guys like Vereen, Ridley and Dennard but they walk because they get more money elsewhere than the Pats are willing to pay, that doesn't make them bad picks. Low cost production for 4 years is solid ROI.
 
#74, Jason Fox is stood upright and is listed at 6'6" and Collins has half of his torso above that guys head! It looks like his feet are level with Fox's knees too.

41" vertical will do that......probably more like 36" with the pads on, but that's what we're looking at.....
 
For 2012 I think it is likely that Chandler Jones, Dont'a Hightower and Nate Ebner will get 2nd contracts. Alfonzo Dennard is on the fence.

I put 50-50 odds that Dennard gets traded in the offseason, since his salary has jumped to the RFA tender level.
 
I put 50-50 odds that Dennard gets traded in the offseason, since his salary has jumped to the RFA tender level.

If Dennard has any trade value that would make sense. The Pats still have 5 deep at CB, and could pipeline a rookie. Not sure he'll have much value, though.
 
I feel like the unreal expectations you write of can also be applied to a guy like Devin McCourty. Some folks view him as a failure because he wound up switching to S from CB.

Hard to see how a guy can exceed the expectations of your typical late 1st round pick by much more of a margin than DMC has.

It's hard to downgrade McCourty just because he they moved him from cb to S. I can't think of a safety that has been drafted recently off the top of my head that is better in the first round minus Earl Thomas who is the best and Eric Berry by a nod.

2010 McCourty Pats 27th


2010 first round safety

Eric Berry 5th KC >
Earl Thomas 14th Seattle >

2011 none taken

2012

Mark Barron TB 7th <
Harrison Smith 29th <

2013

Kenny Vaccaro NO 15th <
Eric Reid SF 18th <
Matt Elam 32nd Bal <

2014

Calvin Pryor Jets 18th <
Haha Clinton Dix 21st <
Deone buchanon Ari 27th <
Jimmy Ward Sf 30th <
 
He did indeed, look how high up he is compared to where the ball is here (great picture):

yrys73gfKtcOFb1ErtQru5MPk5JtB1AjSlmOkrQe4go.png

Great pic!

Obviously, the kick was low. I don't know much about kicking mechanics, and I can't think of any reason this would be the case -- but was the kick perhaps a little bit late as well? If so, then he's absolved of the "mis-timing" accusation.
 
When I read this it makes me Wonder, do Patriots FO use the same Trade value charts as the rest of us earthlings, or do BB have hes own tabel. The old chart is made before the salary cap area and the way BB moves Down to get cheap backups / ST value Guys makes me Wonder.
I would expect that BBs chart is flexible and changes based on things like the makeup of the draft and the picks they do have.
 
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