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Ok, no need for a preamble. This is the "definitive edition", because this clearly IS the team we hoped it would be when this season started. Not great all the time, but when they need to be they rise to the occasion and have proven they can bounce back from adversity This is our best shot at the championship since 2007

Just a bunch of amorphous disconnected thoughts (sort of like the Pats first half offense. ;) ) Let's get to it.

1.I didn't see the KC game, but I don't think I've see the offense look this disorganized, uncoordinated, or execute so poorly as we saw.in that first half. And while it might have been worse in KC, I can't image it was was much worse than Brady's personal performance that half. My friends it looked ugly out there. And while we managed to leave the field with a 14-13 lead at the half, there was no question who was the better team for that first 30 minutest on both offense AND defense.

2. I was much less worried about the success that the Miami offense was having. A lot of it came from gadget and scheme kind of plays (read option, etc) that I felt they would eventually catch up with. And I was right. One of the things I think we have clearly seen over the length of this tough stretch of games including today, is that whatever we see from the defense in the first half, it will get better in the second. And that goes for GB, SD, and today.

3. There was a thread this week from someone who opined that he'd like to see more of Gray. Well today he got more ammo for his argument. What impressed me most about Gray was his quick feet and ability to gain yards after initial contact. 62 yds on 11 carries was impressive, especially when you think he lost a 13 yd gain to a penalty. When you add that performance to the fact Blount looked sluggish and slow, you'd think Gray would earn some more snaps next week.

4. No sacks and relatively few hurries and hits, I think the OL did well against one of the best pass rushes in the league this week. Certainly not perfect, but even most of Wake, Vernon, and Oddrick's best rushes were highly contested. Even in the first half Brady had enough time to throw the ball.

5. We did a thread on depth earlier this weekend and I could help but think of this after Arrington went down with the hamstring. Think about his. From 2009 to last season if we had lost a key secondary to an injury, his replacement would have most likely been a rookie, UDFA (or both), or some refugee from someone else's dust bin, or even a WR on loan. Now next week when we go to replace Arrington, we can go to Alphonso Dennard, who has been a very effective CB for us the previous 2 seasons. And even though he is clearly having some problems this season, he's a far great upgrade to the usual player an injury forces us to go to.

6. I know its not a huge sample, but I continue to see improved play from both Wilson and Harmon at the S position. Those were NOT wasted draft picks like some people have said. I really feel strongly that if anything happened to Chung, he could be more adequately replaced than in any time in recent history.

I think it will be worth a thread next week to discuss the fact that ONCE again, BB is well ahead of the curve in trying to find the hybrid S/CB and stop looking for the big hitting SS prototype. I think that much like the run stopping LB (Spikes) the old SS type is fast losing his impact and has become a limited down kind of player. Just look at the problems very highly drafted safeties like Pryor (jets) and Vacarro (saints) have had this year when they were forced to play outside the box. As much as I'm sure BB still loves Rodney Harrison, the time when his kind of a player could dominate has been over for a few years now.

So even if you disagree with the individual players BB selected (Wilson and Harmon), his thought process to be looking for exactly THAT kind of player was ahead of the curve.

7. You couldn't say he looked quick. But Brady's run showed him to be faster at 37 than he was at 24. I just wish he had slid at the end, though I love him more because he didn't.

8. No question in my mind but for a healthy Gronk, the Pats would have 2 more Lombardi's on their wall. He really is the most dominant non-QB in the NFL and only JJ Watt is close. Twice he lined up outside and beat CB's deep, and can the very next play line up inside and wham block at DT. :eek: He's just one of those guys who makes everyone around him better. And you can't help but love the joy with which he plays the game.

9. Better and better. More and More. The are the Jeopardy answers to the questions, how is Jamie Collins playing as the season goes on? And, how many big plays is he getting? I was beginning to think I was going to have to wait until next year before I'd start to see what I'm seeing in both the quality of "big plays" I'd be seeing and the volume of them. Even some of his misses were impressive that he even got that close.

If he played on a defense that just let him go and attack every down (think Aldon Smith) he'd be a household word by the end of next season. To his individual detriment and the Pats ultimate gain, he is too flexible and valuable a tool in our defensive arsenal to simply just do that. However I just can't help but think about the chaos having he and Chandler Jones lining up next to each other on the outside might bring.

Just think of having a pass rushing arsenal of Ninko, Jones, Collins, and Hightower, PLUS the thought of Easley starting to reach his potential. That would be a nightmare for OC's to plan for and a myriad of possibilities for even a rocket scientist to project.

10. I saw this the other day and felt it was worth repeating. The last Patriot to have 8 sacks or more 3 years in a row before Rob Ninkovich was......... Andre Tippett :eek:

11. The all powerful GB Packers went up to play the moribund Bills today and that great Bills defense handed them their heads. But in the end its just another example of the fact that it is HARD to win on the road against everyone. And from what I can infer from the Aaron Rodgers post game, some of those perfect throws he threaded in there in the Pats game, he missed against the Bills. Unfortunately the media will have to delay Aaron's deification for a few more weeks ;)

12. Denver's win at SD will likely mean the Pats are going to win out to keep home field advantage. The Jets will throw the book at us. They seem to play almost everyone hard. This will be their superbowl and Rex's swan song. The Bills will be playing for their playoff life, so we will get their best as well. I'm really glad that that game will be at Gillette.

If you think that those game will be walk overs, just look at how tough Jax played the Ravens. How tough the Vikes played the Lions. How tough a battered SD played Denver. How tough a battered Texans played the Colts on the road. Any of those one score games could have been lost.

13. The AFCN seems to get a lot of respect even though they got to play against the horrid NFCS and the almost equally horrid AFCS. I doubt that any AFCN team would have done any better vs the AFCW, and NFCN. The AFCN will likely get 2 teams in the playoffs, but it wouldn't be shocking to see them both go out quickly.

14. Summary - Bad job all around for the first 30 minutes. Their asses were saved by a couple of timely plays during that time. It goes to the credit of both the players and coaches that they could turn things around so quickly (on both sides of the ball) after entering the 2nd half so dramatically behind in momentum (which might tell you something about the real importance of "momentum" ;) ).

We can nit pick a lot of things (and we will), but this is a really good team that is built to beat other really good teams. Like every year, the rest of the way, they are capable of losing a game, but my money, if they play their best and so does the other team, the Pats are going to win. If this is the year, the Pats are going to get those good call and magical bounces, they should be hoisting another Lombardi banner down in Foxboro.
 
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3. There was a thread this week from someone who opined that he'd like to see more of Gray. Well today he got more ammo for his argument. What impressed me most about Gray was his quick feet and ability to gain yards after initial contact. 62 yds on 11 carries was impressive, especially when you think he lost a 13 yd gain to a penalty. When you add that performance to the fact Blount looked sluggish and slow, you'd think Gray would earn some more snaps next week.


Great comments... and yes...

when it comes to Gray, I am...

stock-footage-a-gambler-at-a-poker-table-goes-all-in-then-lays-down-a-pair-of-aces.jpg


...all in.

;)
 
Ok, no need for a preamble. This is the "definitive edition", because this clearly IS the team we hoped it would be when this season started. No great all the time, but when it needs to be they rise to the occasion and can bounce back from adversity. This is our best shot at the championship since 2007

Just a bunch of amorphous disconnected thoughts (sort of like the Pats first half offense. ;) ) Let's get to it.

1.I didn't see the KC game, but I don't think I've see the offense look this disorganized, uncoordinated, or execute so poorly as we saw.in that first half. And while it might have been worse in KC, I can't image it was was much worse than Brady's personal performance that half. My friends it looked ugly out there. And while we managed to leave the field with a 14-13 lead at the half, there was no question who was the better team for that first 30 minutest on both offense AND defense.

2. I was much less worried about the success that the Miami offense was having. A lot of it came from gadget and scheme kind of plays (read option, etc) that I felt they would eventually catch up with. And I was right. One of the things I think we have clearly seen over the length of this tough stretch of games including today, is that whatever we see from the defense in the first half, it will get better in the second. And that goes for GB, SD, and today.

3. There was a thread this week from someone who opined that he'd like to see more of Gray. Well today he got more ammo for his argument. What impressed me most about Gray was his quick feet and ability to gain yards after initial contact. 62 yds on 11 carries was impressive, especially when you think he lost a 13 yd gain to a penalty. When you add that performance to the fact Blount looked sluggish and slow, you'd think Gray would earn some more snaps next week.

4. No sacks and relatively few hurries and hits, I think the OL did well against one of the best pass rushes in the league this week. Certainly not perfect, but even most of Wake, Vernon, and Oddrick's best rushes were highly contested. Even in the first half Brady had enough time to throw the ball.

5. We did a thread on depth earlier this weekend and I could help but think of this after Arrington went down with the hamstring. Think about his. From 2009 to last season if we had lost a key secondary to an injury, his replacement would have most likely been a rookie, UDFA (or both), or some refugee from someone else's dust bin, or even a WR on loan. Now next week when we go to replace Arrington, we can go to Alphonso Dennard, who has been a very effective CB for us the previous 2 seasons. And even though he is clearly having some problems this season, he's a far great upgrade to the usual player an injury forces us to go to.

6. I know its not a huge sample, but I continue to see improved play from both Wilson and Harmon at the S position. Those were NOT wasted draft picks like some people have said. I really feel strongly that if anything happened to Chung, he could be more adequately replaced than in any time in recent history.

I think it will be worth a thread next week to discuss the fact that ONCE again, BB is well ahead of the curve in trying to find the hybrid S/CB and stop looking for the big hitting SS prototype. I think that much like the run stopping LB (Spikes) the old SS type is fast losing his impact and has become a limited down kind of player. Just look at the problems very highly drafted safeties like Pryor (jets) and Vacarro (saints) have had this year when they were forced to play outside the box. As much as I'm sure BB still loves Rodney Harrison, the time when his kind of a player could dominate has been over for a few years now.

So even if you disagree with the individual players BB selected (Wilson and Harmon), his thought process to be looking for exactly THAT kind of player was ahead of the curve.

7. You couldn't say he looked quick. But Brady's run showed him to be faster at 37 than he was at 24. I just wish he had slid at the end, though I love him more because he didn't.

8. No question in my mind but for a healthy Gronk, the Pats would have 2 more Lombardi's on their wall. He really is the most dominant non-QB in the NFL and only JJ Watt is close. Twice he lined up outside and beat CB's deep, and can the very next play line up inside and wham block at DT. :eek: He's just one of those guys who makes everyone around him better. And you can't help but love the joy with which he plays the game.

9. Better and better. More and More. The are the Jeopardy answers to the questions, how is Jamie Collins playing as the season goes on? And, how many big plays is he getting? I was beginning to think I was going to have to wait until next year before I'd start to see what I'm seeing in both the quality of "big plays" I'd be seeing and the volume of them. Even some of his misses were impressive that he even got that close.

If he played on a defense that just let him go and attack every down (think Aldon Smith) he'd be a household word by the end of next season. To his individual detriment and the Pats ultimate gain, he is too flexible and valuable a tool in our defensive arsenal to simply just do that. However I just can't help but think about the chaos having he and Chandler Jones lining up next to each other on the outside might bring.

Just think of having a pass rushing arsenal of Ninko, Jones, Collins, and Hightower, PLUS the thought of Easley starting to reach his potential. That would be a nightmare for OC's to plan for and a myriad of possibilities for even a rocket scientist to project.

10. I saw this the other day and felt it was worth repeating. The last Patriot to have 8 sacks or more 3 years in a row before Rob Ninkovich was......... Andre Tippett :eek:

11. The all powerful GB Packers went up to play the moribund Bills today and that great Bills defense handed them their heads. But in the end its just another example of the fact that it is HARD to win on the road against everyone. And from what I can infer from the Aaron Rodgers post game, some of those perfect throws he threaded in there in the Pats game, he missed against the Bills. Unfortunately the media will have to delay Aaron's deification for a few more weeks ;)

12. Denver's win at SD will likely mean the Pats are going to win out to keep home field advantage. The Jets will throw the book at us. They seem to play almost everyone hard. This will be their superbowl and Rex's swan song. The Bills will be playing for their playoff life, so we will get their best as well. I'm really glad that that game will be at Gillette.

If you think that those game will be walk overs, just look at how tough Jax played the Ravens. How tough the Vikes played the Lions. How tough a battered SD played Denver. How tough a battered Texans played the Colts on the road. Any of those one score games could have been lost.

13. The AFCN seems to get a lot of respect even though they got to play against the horrid NFCS and the almost equally horrid AFCS. I doubt that any AFCN team would have done any better vs the AFCW, and NFCN. The AFCN will likely get 2 teams in the playoffs, but it wouldn't be shocking to see them both go out quickly.

14. Summary - Bad job all around for the first 30 minutes. Their asses were saved by a couple of timely plays during that time. It goes to the credit of both the players and coaches that they could turn things around so quickly (on both sides of the ball) after entering the 2nd half so dramatically behind in momentum (which might tell you something about the real importance of "momentum" ;) ).

We can nit pick a lot of things (and we will), but this is a really good team that is built to beat other really good teams. Like every year, the rest of the way, they are capable of losing a game, but my money, if they play their best and so does the other team, the Pats are going to win. If this is the year, the Pats are going to get those good call and magical bounces, they should be hoisting another Lombardi banner down in Foxboro.

Good stuff. I will respond to a few.

  • I still think there is good chance the Broncos lose next week in Cincy and the Pats clinch the the #1 seed by the end of the day. The long range forecast in Cincy will be a high of 35. Granted Cincy is so up and down, who knows which Bengals show up.
  • I am not worried about the Jets. They got killed by Buffalo and they really haven't faced a good team since other than the Dolphins who are average at best.
  • I won't mention Gray because I don't want to derail your thread.
 
Good stuff. I will respond to a few.

  • I still think there is good chance the Broncos lose next week in Cincy and the Pats clinch the the #1 seed by the end of the day. The long range forecast in Cincy will be a high of 35. Granted Cincy is so up and down, who knows which Bengals show up.
  • I am not worried about the Jets. They got killed by Buffalo and they really haven't faced a good team since other than the Dolphins who are average at best.
  • I won't mention Gray because I don't want to derail your thread.
I didn't realize they still had one ore tough game before the end. I thought SD had the best chance to derail them. Clearly their offense isn't what it had been, but then again neither is ours.

You might be right about the Jets. I probably over rate them. Its good to see them work their way out of the top QB sweepstakes with today's win. It was perfect for us. The Jets drop in the draft and our Titans picks gets higher.

Feel free to talk about Gray. I'd be interested to hear your thoughts. I brought up the topic, how can you be derailing the thread?

BTW- will some mod please delete the duplicate thread (the definitive thread) I screwed up when I tried to edit the title.
 
I didn't realize they still had one ore tough game before the end. I thought SD had the best chance to derail them. Clearly their offense isn't what it had been, but then again neither is ours.

You might be right about the Jets. I probably over rate them. Its good to see them work their way out of the top QB sweepstakes with today's win. It was perfect for us. The Jets drop in the draft and our Titans picks gets higher.

Feel free to talk about Gray. I'd be interested to hear your thoughts. I brought up the topic, how can you be derailing the thread?

BTW- will some mod please delete the duplicate thread (the definitive thread) I screwed up when I tried to edit the title.

Trust me, you don't want me to bring the Gray stuff from the game day thread and my post game comments thread to this one. Let's just say I still think he is overrated. He had a few good runs today (I felt I could have run for a first down on his 14 yard run though although he did have a good run or two where there was no hole and he bounced it outside), but I still don't know if he is consistent enough to get a lot of carries.
 
I'm confused. How do you know a guy is good unless you give him carries? And if he's good with the ones he gets, don't you give him more?
 
Two things I'll comment on.

7. Spot on. I was wishing he slid, but I think everyone, including Brady, knew he had a slight chance of the endzone. Nobody wanted him to get there more than he did.

14. I'll disagree on the "momentum" bit. Any momentum was wiped out by the break at half. Coming back out, the pats had their own shot at flipping it. As I didn't get to watch the third and didn't here the early third well, I can't attest to their momentum flipping performance or lack there of.
 
I like how browner is physical but wish he'd stop with the obvious pass interference.
 
I'm confused. How do you know a guy is good unless you give him carries? And if he's good with the ones he gets, don't you give him more?
Especially when Blount is consistently slow and hesitant. Yeah let's do more of what consistently doesn't work instead of what consistently does. Because we don't know if the latter is consistent enough.
 
3. There was a thread this week from someone who opined that he'd like to see more of Gray. Well today he got more ammo for his argument. What impressed me most about Gray was his quick feet and ability to gain yards after initial contact. 62 yds on 11 carries was impressive, especially when you think he lost a 13 yd gain to a penalty. When you add that performance to the fact Blount looked sluggish and slow, you'd think Gray would earn some more snaps next week.
Maybe use Gray to start the game and get them softened up and close with Blount? I agree Gray seems to have much more zip & zag and hits the holes well. Plus, at 230 he'll help wear down defenses. Then throw a fresh Blount at them and let them decide to be sore for the next 2-3 days or not square up on him. Or, we could just throw the ball :)
4. No sacks and relatively few hurries and hits, I think the OL did well against one of the best pass rushes in the league this week. Certainly not perfect, but even most of Wake, Vernon, and Oddrick's best rushes were highly contested. Even in the first half Brady had enough time to throw the ball.
2-3 plays (relatively quickly) on a drive Gronk manhandled Wake. That's TE out-atheleting a premier (probowl level) DE. The talking heads really need to give this some national attention, but sadly, they'll just talk about his 11 TDs (or perhaps being shut out the fist half)?
8. No question in my mind but for a healthy Gronk, the Pats would have 2 more Lombardi's on their wall. He really is the most dominant non-QB in the NFL and only JJ Watt is close. Twice he lined up outside and beat CB's deep, and can the very next play line up inside and wham block at DT. :eek: He's just one of those guys who makes everyone around him better. And you can't help but love the joy with which he plays the game.
And my response to 4 above. People feel Graham is all world because he can make those catches, run routes and run fast. Gronk does all that and blocks line an o-lineman.

I'm sure Tony Gonzalez is aware that him being the best TE (arguably) will last only 3-4 more years if Gronk keeps this up. Personally I'm already there, but I'm a Patriot homer.
 
I like how browner is physical but wish he'd stop with the obvious pass interference.

I'm fine with it. You have to look at the aggregate body of work. What people don't see is all the successful plays he has away from the ball because of that same physical style.

Give me a whole lotta good with a little bad.

Ironically, that style caused an INT today on a play where BB easily could have been flagged for getting there early.
 
They Blount/Gray controversy is a nice one, as depth is a good thing. Brady went to them a couple of time via the air.. with winter upon us, two big(motivated) backs are a good thing...

The first half was lackluster, perhaps it was a hangover after that 5 game, very intense, stretch...

Special teams are the freaking bomb, another TD from the ST'ers..this is the best group that I have seen since I can remember, all aspects are spot on.

I still cannot wrap my brain around another superbowl yet, we are four games away from that possibility.. one game at a time.. but this team is very good, very balanced in all 3 aspects of the game.
 
Good work.

The Green Bay Packers may have played themselves into a wild card by losing to the Bills, and may miss a chance to play the AFCS winner on the road.

Right now it would be Green Bay at Dallas, and Seattle or Arizona at the AFCS winner who will have 7 wins at most. AZ or Seattle, and Detroit get byes.

"The Detroit Lions win out and get a bye." I never thought I'd type those words.

http://espn.go.com/nfl/standings/_/type/playoffs
 
I like how browner is physical but wish he'd stop with the obvious pass interference.
The pass interference was a terrible call. The ball came down out of bounds and was therefore uncatchable.
 
I thought Gray really showed something in this game. He really had success where Blount struggled. He has very quick feet and good burst mixed with excellent vision. I have been hesitant to jump on his bandwagon after the Colts game, because that run defense is suspect. However, the Phins had really bottled up Blount and he came in and had a lot of success.

He deserves more carries IMO.
 
Ken - the KC game was much worse. Credit the Miami D with that athletic interception, but the Pats were moving the ball at the time. KC was much more than just out of sync. It was a beatdown, and the offense looked like a victim that entire game before some garbage time points.

Heels - don't worry. A loss by the Lions to the Pack in GB and it may yet find itself on the outside looking in (given its Turkey Day game with the hapless Bears it may yet find a way to lose both remaining games). I agree that win out and earn a bye is unsettling as it has been 3 years since Detroit's last visit to the postseason and it last won a playoff game with Barry Sanders in 1991.
 
No sacks and relatively few hurries and hits, I think the OL did well against one of the best pass rushes in the league this week. Certainly not perfect, but even most of Wake, Vernon, and Oddrick's best rushes were highly contested. Even in the first half Brady had enough time to throw the ball.
Brady was getting the ball out very quickly that first half yet was still getting knocked around. If you look at any half the Pat's have played poorly in this season, the OL was among the worst offenders. Brady was certainly off in the first half, but much of that was because of the poor OL play. That said, it was mostly the interior OL that was getting beat while the OTs seemed to be holding their own.
 
1. I hope Kyle Arrington is ready for the playoffs. He is our best slot corner.

2. I'll be rooting hard for Arizona to knock off Seattle. The Hawks are the one team I don't want to see. Not that the Pats cannot beat them but they have the elements on both sides of the ball which give the Pats trouble. A mobile QB who can extend plays and gain positive yards with his feet coupled with a solid run game to help limit the number of drives Brady gets. On defense a tough physical pass defense that can also stop the run. BTW Seattle gets away with stuff game in game out that Browner routinely gets called for.

3. Getting Chandler Jones back made this defense that much more dynamic.

4. Before the half I said to a friend that Pats need to go vertical to Gronk in the second half because and they'll hit some big ones. Nice adjustment by Josh.

5. Second half points allowed: Miami 0, SD 0, GB 3, Detroit 3, Indy 10, Denver 14(0 in 4th). That's a seriously good run against quality opponents.
 
Good thoughts as always Ken. Thanks for sharing them.

1 & 2 - I was a little concerned at how open the MIami receivers were, but it got better in the second half.
3 - There's no gray area for me, I like Jonas.
4 - Tom Brady doesn't require a lot of time to throw the ball accurately. He reminds me of Marino in that regard. Guys can come at him clean and he can still complete a pass.
5 - Belichick seems to be ahead of the curve in a lot of ways.
7 - All I could think of when Brady took that hit was Drew Bledsoe. Luckily for Tom (and us) there wasn't a LB waiting to deck him.
10 - Nink for the HOF;)
11 - My guess on the Green Bay loss to the Bills is that the media will ignore that game. Someone has to take the place of P6.
13 - The AFCN could get 3 teams into the playoffs. Between that and a 6-10 team getting into the playoffs ahead of 10-6 teams in the NFC, this is the year that this idiotic 4 team division baloney will get it's proper share of criticism.

Just as I was making my picks in the Predict the Score thread Sunday morning, I got a call from a friend who had a couple of club seats for the game. Having had the Putnam Club experience for myself now, I understand why those red seats go unoccupied at times. The fans are inside.

As I was watching the Pats and Miami during warm ups, I couldn't help but notice that Belichick and 4 or 5 of his coaches were standing just inside their side of the 50, but instead of watching the Pats they were closely watching and discussing Miami. Anyone know what they're looking at and talking about?

Is it really necessary for the Pats to have a constant feed of loud music fill every moment? It makes it almost impossible to have a football discussion with the person sitting next to you. Just another reason to leave the red seats and head into the nice quiet bar. Although, in their quest for every dollar, the Pats decided to add a row of chairs behind the last row of red seats, and now you can't see the field from inside the Putnam Club.

I understand that one penalty against Browner was questionable, but only because the ball might not have been close enough to be caught. It wasn't because Browner didn't pull and grab the WRs arm, because he did. He also had another play that could have resulted in a penalty. This guy needs to clean up his act.
 
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