Darrelle Revis

patfanken · Dec 13, 2014

mayoclinic said:
Though we don't know the details yet, Marcus Cannon's 2 year/$9M contract with a $3.2M signing bonus could be a useful guide to an Ayers deal. Cannon is not a starter, but he's someone who BB seems to think is a valuable rotational player who deserves playing time:

http://www.patriots.com/news/blog/a...-to-play/164c6c65-fd7e-4499-b204-debbe5a6541a

I think Ayers falls into roughly the same class: a valuable rotational player who has been productive and helped the team, and who deserves to play. He's played much better than Cannon this year, though he has a smaller body of work. If the Pats value Cannon enough to give him a 2 year deal at $4.5M per maximum value, I don't see why a 4/$16 is out of Ayers' range. Like swing tackles, rotational pass rushers are valued in the NFL.

I have a lot of mixed emotions about Ayers. A lot is being colored by the presence of both Moore and Buchanon on the horizen. Both have very similar skill sets as Ayers. Both are very raw, and of course Buchanon in on the IR.

I think whether the Pats extend themselves to sign Ayers long term will depend a LOT on how the Pats end up evaluating Moore and Buchanon's potential and future with the team. Both have the potential to be as good if not better than Ayers and both will cost a hell of a lot less. The question is between going with the "known" vs "the potential" and the relative cost of both.

That being said, Ayers ought to be paying the Pats for resurrecting his playing career. One way or the other his stay here is going to make him a lot of money and insure his employment in the league for several years to come. If the decision comes down to keep, I'd still only do it one a 2 year basis. Or one of those phony baloney 4 year deals that really only commit the team to 2 years before they can drop the player. Either way 3-4MM/yr is likely to be the price for a proven rotational pass rusher

mayoclinic · Dec 13, 2014

patfanken said:
I have a lot of mixed emotions about Ayers. A lot is being colored by the presence of both Moore and Buchanon on the horizen. Both have very similar skill sets as Ayers. Both are very raw, and of course Buchanon in on the IR.

I think whether the Pats extend themselves to sign Ayers long term will depend a LOT on how the Pats end up evaluating Moore and Buchanon's potential and future with the team. Both have the potential to be as good if not better than Ayers and both will cost a hell of a lot less. The question is between going with the "known" vs "the potential" and the relative cost of both.

That being said, Ayers ought to be paying the Pats for resurrecting his playing career. One way or the other his stay here is going to make him a lot of money and insure his employment in the league for several years to come. If the decision comes down to keep, I'd still only do it one a 2 year basis. Or one of those phony baloney 4 year deals that really only commit the team to 2 years before they can drop the player. Either way 3-4MM/yr is likely to be the price for a proven rotational pass rusher

I think it's a stretch to say that Moore and Buchanan have "similar skill sets as Ayers". Neither has yet shown the ability to do the things that Ayers does. His versatility fits perfectly for the Pats. As Doug Kyed wrote yesterday:

It will be interesting to see how the Patriots’ defense looks when Jones returns, though. I believe Jones is a better overall player than Ayers, but Ayers adds a level of deception that Jones doesn’t, since he can drop back into coverage with ease at a moment’s notice alongside fellow edge defender Ninkovich. Jones is better, but Ayers actually might make the defense better and more deceptive.

http://nesn.com/2014/12/akeem-ayers...o-change-when-chandler-jones-returns-mailbag/

As for the Pats' resurrecting Ayers' career, it works both ways. The Pats gave him an opportunity, and he's stepped up to it, and been a major mid-season savior with Jones and Mayo out. Kudos to him for stepping up and taking advantage of the opportunity.

mgteich · Dec 13, 2014

patfanken said:
I have a lot of mixed emotions about Ayers. A lot is being colored by the presence of both Moore and Buchanon on the horizen. Both have very similar skill sets as Ayers. Both are very raw, and of course Buchanon in on the IR.

I think whether the Pats extend themselves to sign Ayers long term will depend a LOT on how the Pats end up evaluating Moore and Buchanon's potential and future with the team. Both have the potential to be as good if not better than Ayers and both will cost a hell of a lot less. The question is between going with the "known" vs "the potential" and the relative cost of both.

That being said, Ayers ought to be paying the Pats for resurrecting his playing career. One way or the other his stay here is going to make him a lot of money and insure his employment in the league for several years to come. If the decision comes down to keep, I'd still only do it one a 2 year basis. Or one of those phony baloney 4 year deals that really only commit the team to 2 years before they can drop the player. Either way 3-4MM/yr is likely to be the price for a proven rotational pass rusher

Moore and Buchanan have shown nothing (and are "very raw"). Ayers has shown that he can start and play well. Many of us wanted Belichick to sign a player like Ayers all through the off-season.

The issue for me is that I don't think that we'll be able to afford Ayers. He's been the starter on a top defense.

ctpatsfan77 · Dec 13, 2014

OhExaulted1 said:
Well, I know we can't franchise him. I guess if they decide he's too expensive they could always trade him before the option comes due at the end of the league year.

Once the trade deadline has passed, you can't trade a player until the new league year starts.

mayoclinic · Dec 13, 2014

mgteich said:
Moore and Buchanan have shown nothing (and are "very raw"). Ayers has shown that he can start and play well. Many of us wanted Belichick to sign a player like Ayers all through the off-season.

Agree completely. I'd sign him now for Arrington/Cannon money.

mgteich said:
The issue for me is that I don't think that we'll be able to afford Ayers. He's been the starter on a top defense.

A lot depends on Ayers. Is he happy here? Does he want to be a "starter", or is he happy being part of a rotation?

If Ayers gets to FA someone may throw more money at him than the Pats are willing to pay. If someone wants to make a Paul Kruger kind of offer then he's gone. But Ayers' body of work at this level is fairly small. Connor Barwin got an AAV of $6M/year, but had a much more productive 4 years with Houston. Eric Walden got 4/$16M from the Colts last year, after starting 15 games. He's started 11/12 games for the Colts this year, and has 6 sacks. I don't think 4/$16M is peanuts, and I don't think it's overpaying for Ayers. I'd offer him the security now. For a guy who was on the inactive game day list 2 months ago, that kind of security might be appealing.

mgteich · Dec 13, 2014

mayoclinic said:
I don't think 4/$16M is peanuts, and I don't think it's overpaying for Ayers. I'd offer him the security now. For a guy who was on the inactive game day list 2 months ago, that kind of security might be appealing.

What "security" should the patriots offer? Will the patriots really offer Ayers more guaranteed money than other teams?

patfanken · Dec 13, 2014

Hey, MG, lets cool our jets here on the Ayers love and Buchanon/Moore disdain. Ayers has been a wonderful and RELATIVELY productive mid-season pick up, but lets keep it in perspective please. In his BEST years (his first 3) he started 43 games and TOTALED 9 sacks. Moore and Buchanon have have started 8 games between them and have 3 sacks. And while yes, both are very raw, the bar Ayers has set isn't exactly very high

BTW- I'm not recommending NOT to sign Ayers. I'm just pointing out that the decision process isn't as cut and dried as it might seem (especially for those who always immediately want to sign......EVERYBODY

) Ayers has done a remarkable job stepping in during the season, but keep in mind, in 6 games he's averaged 2 tackles and a half sack while getting a great majority of the snaps. Nice job Akeem, but do you really want to pay literally millions to this guy who has hax a very average resume for the previous 3 years.

mgteich · Dec 13, 2014

NEWS FLASH
The New England patriots have no intention of paying Revis $20M for one year of service and take a $25M cap hit. This in NOT happening.
===================================
Maybe we'll offer Revis $1M a game plus playoff and pro bowl incentives, perhaps not.

That being said, the patriots want to sign Revis would probably like to stay for the right compensation. I suspect that, as always, the issue will may guaranteed money.

mgteich · Dec 13, 2014

patfanken said:
Hey, MG, lets cool our jets here on the Ayers love and Buchanon/Moore disdain. Ayers has been a wonderful and RELATIVELY productive mid-season pick up, but lets keep it in perspective please. In his BEST years (his first 3) he started 43 games and TOTALED 9 sacks. Moore and Buchanon have have started 8 games between them and have 3 sacks. And while yes, both are very raw, the bar Ayers has set isn't exactly very high

BTW- I'm recommending NOT to sign Ayers. I'm just pointing out that the decision process isn't as cut and dried as it might seem (especially for those who always immediately want to sign......EVERYBODY ) Ayers has done a remarkable job stepping in during the season, but keep in mind, in 6 games he's averaged 2 tackles and a half sack while getting a great majority of the snaps. Nice job Akeem, but do you really want to pay literally millions to this guy who has had a very average resume for the previous 3 years.

We have this discussion every year. I am willing to pay more for players like Arrington, Connolly, Wendell, Cannon and others than most on this board. aj was almost apoplectic when some of us suggested paying Cannon type money for a rotation veteran DE.

If you think that we'd have been almost as well off with Moore starting, then that is your opinion. It is not mine. And yes, I think that the team and league will look at Ayers performance here and pay him accordingly. Ayers has had a show-me year. For MANY teams, it is his 2014 performance that will matter.

Based on how much the team has shown it values rotational DE's (a raw 6th and 7th round draft choice), I don't expect to see Ayers on the team next year. I expect Belichick to throw the dice again being very, very thin at DE.

mayoclinic · Dec 13, 2014

mgteich said:
What "security" should the patriots offer? Will the patriots really offer Ayers more guaranteed money than other teams?

The "security" of offering Ayers a deal now comes in several ways:

1. Knowing where he is going to be, and how he will fit in. Ayers fits in well here. He was very frustrated in Tennessee. We've seen FAs quickly regret some of their decisions.

2. Protection against injury. Lock up Ayers now and he's reasonably set. Sure, the Pats could win the SB with Ayers playing a prominent roll and he could potentially cash in like Paul Kruger (who hasn't earned his deal), but he could also get hurt between now and the end of the season and lose leverage.

Ayers doesn't know what other teams will offer. The FA market is fickle. Julian Edelman didn't garner that much interest last year despite a 1000 yard breakout season. Ayers might break the bank, or he might not, and he could get hurt or end up in a much worse situation than the one he is in now.

mayoclinic · Dec 13, 2014

mgteich said:
Based on how much the team has shown it values rotational DE's (a raw 6th and 7th round draft choice), I don't expect to see Ayers on the team next year. I expect Belichick to throw the dice again being very, very thin at DE.

BB has consistently shown that he values versatility and valuable rotational depth. He did it with Arrington. He did with Ninkovich. He did it with Cannon. Why should Ayers be any different?

patfanken · Dec 13, 2014

mayoclinic said:
I think it's a stretch to say that Moore and Buchanan have "similar skill sets as Ayers". Neither has yet shown the ability to do the things that Ayers does. His versatility fits perfectly for the Pats. As Doug Kyed wrote yesterday:

http://nesn.com/2014/12/akeem-ayers...o-change-when-chandler-jones-returns-mailbag/

As for the Pats' resurrecting Ayers' career, it works both ways. The Pats gave him an opportunity, and he's stepped up to it, and been a major mid-season savior with Jones and Mayo out. Kudos to him for stepping up and taking advantage of the opportunity.

Doug Kyed????? Mayo, Doug Kyed???? You are quoting Doug Kyed to support a point you are trying to make. You got to be kidding me. I'd be much more likely to support a point based on YOUR opinion alone (or about any of another dozen guys here) You do NOT go to Doug for anything more than injury reports or if I want a solid level of draft discussion, almost as good as I can get on the draft board here any day of the week.

Brady_to_Moss · Dec 13, 2014

i mean how many revis type players does a team get a chance to coach with..once every 10 years some teams longer?

Shuts down an entire side of the field. That's worth a lot of $$ and i would gladly pay it

Deus Irae · Dec 13, 2014

strngplyr said:
When Revis was with the Jets, and even arguably better than he is now, I questioned his worth, because an Elite CB can only shut down one WR, which does allow help elsewhere, but on a team like the Jets he really is only so valuable...

What I never took into consideration with that argument on why he wasn't worth the money is how valuable he is to a team with a well above average offense.

Revis has single handedly accounted for our offense having more possessions this season, that hasn't mattered to the Jets in recent history, in New England, giving our offense the ball back means a lot.

Its really hard to gauge the value of one CB on his own, but when you consider who he gives the ball back to, he's worth nearly as much as Brady.

On teams like GB, NE, and DEN, an elite CB is worth as much or more than an elite WR, the QBs are going to make things happen no matter who theyre throwing to, but very few teams have more than one elite WR who an elite CB can help limit, the value truly rises the better team that CB is on, it's pretty awesome to think about how much more he helps us than he ever helped his previous teams.

You were kidding yourself about Revis' value to the Jets. He was a huge difference maker there, too. In 2006, the year before his arrival, the Jets went 4-12. Upon his arrival, and up to the season he popped his ACL, the Jets went

9-7
9-7
11-5
8-8

Once Revis went down, things changed

6-10
8-8
2-11

And Revis played 2 games in the 6-10 season, with the Jets going 2-0 in those games. Without Revis, the Jets went 4-10 in 2012.

RIpats88 · Dec 13, 2014

I dont really agree with the concept that felger/mazz and all the talking heads throw out there as if the Patriots WONT try and pay Revis what he is worth.

While belichick has been reluctant to overpay for good but not great players, he really hasnt balked at paying the market price for players he deems to be "elite" they paid Gronkowski, they paid Mayo, they made Mankins the top paid at his position before his play dipped off.

I think BB sees that Revis is someone who is a HOFer best CB in the game and is worth whatever amount they pay him. Just having Revis on the field has allowed the defense to do so many different things.

everyone uses the Brady taking pay-cuts argument. But I wouldnt be surprised if that is all on him because he is such a team-first guy and wants that 4th ring more than anything.

Brady_to_Moss · Dec 13, 2014

RIpats88 said:
I dont really agree with the concept that felger/mazz and all the talking heads throw out there as if the Patriots WONT try and pay Revis what he is worth.

Trust me...no one agrees those those idiots. Especially in this case when they have already basically said...pats have already moved on from Revis or something to that effect.

BTTA · Dec 13, 2014

RIpats88 said:
Everyone uses the Brady taking pay-cuts argument. But I wouldnt be surprised if that is all on him because he is such a team-first guy and wants that 4th ring more than anything.

This is the ultimate question, I think. There's no doubt that there is middle ground to be found between a "budget busting salary" and a "team balance" salary. How much does Revis value those aspects of playing for the Pats that aren't about his salary? None of us know. Heck, he may still be figuring that out.

Brady_to_Moss · Dec 13, 2014

betterthanthealternative said:
This is the ultimate question, I think. There's no doubt that there is middle ground to be found between a "budget busting salary" and a "team balance" salary. How much does Revis value those aspects of playing for the Pats that aren't about his salary? None of us know. Heck, he may still be figuring that out.

This could be Revis last big deal based on his age...so will be trying to get top $$ as he should because he is the best in the league at what he does...aka 15 mill a year

Jackson 2 · Dec 13, 2014

Not sure if anyone posted this here, but Tom Current said the other night on TV that he spoke contract with Revis this week and was told by Revis that it isn't imperative for him to be the highest paid CB but that he needs to be in the ballpark, so to speak.

Brady_to_Moss · Dec 13, 2014

Jackson 2 said:
Not sure if anyone posted this here, but Tom Current said the other night on TV that he spoke contract with Revis this week and was told by Revis that it isn't imperative for him to be the highest paid CB but that he needs to be in the ballpark, so to speak.

Really? Surprised revis would talk contract right now when he really hasn't all year. Either way if that's true then we are in business

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