Browner's penalty negating McCourty TD

IllegalContact said:

so when does a player become not defenseless?

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After the game,

AndyJohnson said:

Already quoted it for you from the rule book.
Once he completes the catch and has had time to protect himself as a runner.



(2) A receiver attempting to catch a pass; or who has completed a catch and has not had time to protect himself or has not clearly become a runner. If the receiver/runner is capable of avoiding or warding off the impending contact of an opponent, he is no longer a defenseless player;

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Sounds like he was attempting it and had time to defend himself

so he wasn't defenseless

Jangles said:

Sounds like he was attempting it and had time to defend himself

so he wasn't defenseless

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Yeah, the "defenseless" argument is a crock. You just aren't granted an unlimited amount of time to bobble a ball, particularly when you are staring down the defender the entire time.

If someone wants to say that the hit was illegal under any circumstance, so be it. I don't agree with it, but at least it's an argument worth making.

AndyJohnson said:

I'm pretty certain that WAS called a penalty.

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There was another penalty called on the same play - you can see the flag flying before the hit.

AndyJohnson said:

Whats the solution? There have to be judgment calls.

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For these types of plays - review, I guess.

Satchboogie3 said:

Did you miss the "If the receiver/runner is capable of avoiding or warding off the impending contact of an opponent, he is no longer a defenseless player;" Nowhere in that statement does it require completing a catch. He was certainly capable of defending himself, in fact the replay showed him look STRAIGHT AT Browner coming in. He decided to still try to haul in the pass rather than brace for impact/move. I admire that, but it means he WASNT a defenseless receiver. Otherwise, we'd see the flag come out on every screen pass...

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I think this is they key. He didn't have to continue to try to catch the ball, he could have instead went to protect himself. He had an adequate enough time to stop juggling the ball and brace for impact.

Q. Tedy, huge fan! ... Also, what are your thoughts on the Brandon Browner hit? Should these personal foul calls be reviewable? -- Bert (Washington, D.C.)

On Browner's hit, I know it took away a touchdown, but I've seen less called. The shoulder was to the head or neck area and that's what the rule says. I don't know an officiating crew that wouldn't have called that one. I don't like the rule, like everyone else, because it looked like Browner made an effort. But if the head or neck area is threatened, the officials' player-safety training kicks into effect.

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..

Browner made a clean shoulder to shoulder hit on the WR. This was a case of the refs using Browner's reputation against him to make a bad call. And it wiped out what could have been a gamechanger of a play. Luckily the Pats still pulled out the win, or there would be a LOT more acrimony against this controversial call.

I hope the refs will not use this to pull more bad calls against Browner in the playoffs because we will need him and his physical play.

brdmaverick said:

What does everyone think about the 'helmet to helmet' penalty on Browner that negated a McCourty pick six?

Even after the win, I'm still livid that they called this back. I mean, Browner made a clean, hard hit that resulted in a game changing pick six, the ref has the nerve to give the Chargers a 'get out of jail' card. I'm so frustrated by this.

I still wouldn't agree with the call if they called it a hit on a defenseless receiver but that would be an easier sell.

Even with this play being called back, our defense came up HUGE tonight.

Go Pats.

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You would think a helmet to helmet hit would make a distinctive sound, too bad clips don't pick up the audio.

The problem I have is the NFL assigning Leavy to do THIS game....he almost guarantees an intergalactic eff up in every big game he refs. It's HISTORY and don't try to sell me on the notion that Goodell DOESN'T know it. He does. Leavy ALSO reffed the Jets game. Weird , eh? Funny how close THAT games was despite the almost non existent Jet secondary. Keep your eyes open for a Goodelian end run in the playoffs starring Boger, Triplette or,if a road game, Leavy again.

Joker said:

The problem I have is the NFL assigning Leavy to do THIS game....he almost guarantees an intergalactic eff up in every big game he refs. It's HISTORY and don't try to sell me on the notion that Goodell DOESN'T know it. He does. Leavy ALSO reffed the Jets game. Weird , eh? Funny how close THAT games was despite the almost non existent Jet secondary. Keep your eyes open for a Goodelian end run in the playoffs starring Boger, Triplette or,if a road game, Leavy again.

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All of these names give me nightmares. How Triplette is in the league still boggles my mind.

Triplette is well respected by coaching staffs below the Mason/Dixon line. Jeff Fisher has run interference for him for over a decade lobbying for his crew to get the plum playoff assignments. It's no secret he's biased against the northern teams. He's openly screwed the Jets, the Bills the Giants, the Eagles, the Bears, Minny, Detroit...just pick one..when they line up against a Dixie or western NFL team. Call ratios over a decade of reffing don't lie.

Jangles said:

Sounds like he was attempting it and had time to defend himself

so he wasn't defenseless

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Oswlek said:

Yeah, the "defenseless" argument is a crock. You just aren't granted an unlimited amount of time to bobble a ball, particularly when you are staring down the defender the entire time.

If someone wants to say that the hit was illegal under any circumstance, so be it. I don't agree with it, but at least it's an argument worth making.

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Onedaful said:

I think this is they key. He didn't have to continue to try to catch the ball, he could have instead went to protect himself. He had an adequate enough time to stop juggling the ball and brace for impact.

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The point of the rule is that he is defenseless while trying to make the catch, and shortly thereafter until he is set to defend himself against a hit. The fact that he is bobbling the ball is exactly why he is defenseless.
That doesn't mean he cannot be hit, as some of you are seeming to imply. It means that he cannot be hit in the head and neck area with the shoulder.
If he caught the ball and was running, the hit is fine.
There is a separate, special rule that says basically while you are focussing on something else (ie receiving a pass, throwing a pass, catching a punt) you are not in a position to brace for the hit.
To make ridiculous comments like a player would purposely bobble the ball so that he couldn't get hit in the neck is silly.
If this hit were 12 inches lower, even with him being defenseless, it would be legal.
Tedy Bruschi agrees with me as well.

Look I am not defending the rule, its a bad rule.
But yuo can't just ignore it exists because you don't like it.

rlcarr said:

For reference in this thread, here's the defenseless player rule since that has at least a chance of being legitimately applied to the Browner play. (I do think a H2H call was indefensible):

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By those rules Browner violated (2), (b-1) and possibly the launching rule (b-3i). All he had to do to avoid the penalty was hit him just a little lower. Browner had all the chance he needed to do that.

1960Pats said:

By those rules Browner violated (2), (b-1) and possibly the launching rule (b-3i). All he had to do to avoid the penalty was hit him just a little lower. Browner had all the chance he needed to do that.

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2 is just the definition of defenseless
B1 describes the hit
He did not launch

LOL @ people insisting on last word

It was a clean hit and a bad call.

neither helmet was involved, the neck was not part of the hit, and the pass catcher had time to avoid the hit......textbook

IllegalContact said:

LOL @ people insisting on last word

It was a clean hit and a bad call.

neither helmet was involved, the neck was not part of the hit, and the pass catcher had time to avoid the hit......textbook

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So thats you, Mr "Case Closed" after every misinformed post, insisting on the last word?
Where exactly do you think the hit was if it wasn't in the NECK AREA. Have you actually looked at the images and clips posted in here?

AndyJohnson said:

2 is just the definition of defenseless
B1 describes the hit
He did not launch

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I wasn't sure on the launch either. Joker's picture clearly showed Browner with at least one foot on the ground at contact. The picture also clearly showed Browner's shoulder making contact with the face mask, enough to spin it around a little. That's more like the face area than the neck area, and should leave no doubt that the hit was too high.

I think we can all agree that we want Browner to continue to provide hits like that for the team, but I'll be pretty upset if he takes a dumb penalty at the wrong time in the playoffs. He could have provided just as great a hit by hitting him in the chest and avoided the penalty.

1960Pats said:

I wasn't sure on the launch either. Joker's picture clearly showed Browner with at least one foot on the ground at contact. The picture also clearly showed Browner's shoulder making contact with the face mask, enough to spin it around a little. That's more like the face area than the neck area, and should leave no doubt that the hit was too high.

I think we can all agree that we want Browner to continue to provide hits like that for the team, but I'll be pretty upset if he takes a dumb penalty at the wrong time in the playoffs. He could have provided just as great a hit by hitting him in the chest and avoided the penalty.

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I will take Browner and the way he plays, and accept the penalties.
I'd rather worry that he commit a penalty at an important time than that someone else gets torched at an important time.
You simply cannot ask a defender at full speed to aim 12 inches lower.

Let's face it and come to terms with the fact that the NFL is a no contact league now. I honestly don't know if I could ever give up football altogether because I love the game, and especially my Patriots, so much. However, football is becoming so hard to watch now. It's so annoying! Week after week of this sh*t. Is anyone going to do something about it?