Browner's penalty negating McCourty TD

TBR · Dec 8, 2014

There were several instances during the game where unnecessary roughness could've been called on the Chargers

- The flying out of nowhere late hit on Gronk after TD
- Melvin Ingram attempting to rip Solder's head off as he rushed the passer
- Jonas Gray got clothes-lined and wrapped up by the "neck area" on 1 of his runs
- Liguet had a questionable late hit on Brady

ForThoseAboutToRock · Dec 8, 2014

rlcarr said:
You can disagree with the rule as written (and that's a fair thing to do), but given that the rule as written says it's illegal to among other things contact a "player attempting to make a catch" in the "neck area", even with "the shoulder", I don't think the call is as outrageous as many are making it out to be.

I agree with your interpretation upon reading the rule. I'm sure this is the type of language that the league will use to justify the call (along with how important player safety is to them (haha)). Some have said it was shoulder to shoulder, but its obviously close enough that, the call being what it was on the field, even if it was reviewable I doubt they'd have overturned it.

Note that I went ballistic at the time this call was made. I think it was a junk call (what else can a player do?) However, there's no denying the refs have the letter of the rule to support their call.

Brady_to_Moss · Dec 8, 2014

Isn't that how the NFL wants hits to be? Shoulder to shoulder? Like collinsworth said last night..you really can't hit anyone anymore....in 5 years this league...have no idea where it will be with that ****** at the helm...

Ring 6 · Dec 8, 2014

DaBruinz said:
Even after throwing the flag, Levy had an out. He could have reviewed the play since it did result in a turnover and all turnovers are reviewed. He could have gone to the booth, looked at the hit, and come back and said "There is no flag on the play for an illegal helmet-to-helmet hit. The Defender's shoulder hit the receiver's shoulder. The result of the play is a TD". Levy's mistake was over-reacting to what he saw and the player being down.

Also, one thing people seem to forget is that even whiplash can cause a concussion..

No he cannot. That is not reviewable.

libra957 · Dec 8, 2014

That was a clean hit,you can't play even play proper defense anymore.I remember Wilkfor saying to the ref it was shoulder to shoulder, everyone on TV saw the same thing.

DaBruinz · Dec 8, 2014

letekro said:
But......there was no turnover. Before the turnover, there was a penalty that gave the Bolts a first down.

Except there WAS a turnover because there wasn't actually a penalty since it was really a legal hit.. As I stated, Levy should never have made the announcement like he did.. But why bother with facts..

Ring 6 · Dec 8, 2014

Has anyone been able to see WHEN the flag was thrown?
I have a feeling it was thrown after it was apparent that Green was down and not getting up, making this another "15 yards for hitting the guy too hard and hurting him" penalty.
The NFL needs to adopt the college rule. Every hit to the head penalty carries an ejection for the rest of the half plus the teams next half, but they are all reviewable. It just happens to fast and a hit near the head looks an awful lot like a hit to the head at full speed. I've seen too many missed to think the system they have in place works.

Big-T · Dec 8, 2014

AndyJohnson said:
Has anyone been able to see WHEN the flag was thrown?
I have a feeling it was thrown after it was apparent that Green was down and not getting up, making this another "15 yards for hitting the guy too hard and hurting him" penalty.

Based on how Al Michaels called it, the flag was indeed late. About half way through the return he says something like "and a flag has been thrown so we'll look for a hold"

Ring 6 · Dec 8, 2014

DaBruinz said:
Except there WAS a turnover because there wasn't actually a penalty since it was really a legal hit.. As I stated, Levy should never have made the announcement like he did.. But why bother with facts..

The ref called it an illegal hit, so therefore it was an illegal hit.
You can't say it didn't happen because you think a non-reviewable call would be reversed on review.
Once the flag was thrown, the hit was officially illegal whether that decision was a good one or bad.
Only the referee can decide whether a penalty is a penalty, and we can only decide if he was right or wrong.
Replay can decide whether he was right or wrong on REVIEWABLE issue, of which this was not one.

Ring 6 · Dec 8, 2014

Big-T said:
Based on how Al Michaels called it, the flag was indeed late. About half way through the return he says something like "and a flag has been thrown so we'll look for a hold"

It went up on the screen late too, but that just tells us when Michaels and the spotter saw it, not necessarily when it was thrown.

ForThoseAboutToRock · Dec 8, 2014

DaBruinz said:
RayClay - You're a great poster, but you're incorrect on this. As soon as the ball was tipped by Green, it's anyone's ball and he can be hit. Not sure how you can claim he committed a penalty when it was a clean shoulder to shoulder hit..

I disagree. It's not that he couldn't be hit, but the manner in which he was hit. For instance, if it really was a launching H2H hit, or a blatant horsecollar, or something - I don't think anyone would disagree on the illegal nature of the hit, regardless of the tip drill in action.

Also, while I don't fully agree with @RayClay about how obvious the contact was w/ the neck, I think it's close enough that a) the NFL will agree with the call (perhaps fining Browner in the process) and b) if we lived in a universe where that call was reversible upon video review, they wouldn't have done so given the presumption that the play as called is correct.

Again, I was livid when this was called, and I think its an unfair rule since Browner played it pretty damn well.

QuantumMechanic · Dec 8, 2014

DaBruinz said:
Secondly, as has been pointed out to you, as soon as the ball was tipped by Green and not caught completely, it's the equivalent of a tipped ball and the "defenseless receiver" rule no longer applies. Just like it wouldn't on a ball tipped at the LOS.

If you're so positive, it should be trivial for you to point out the rule that says the defenseless player rule does not apply on a tipped ball. And don't say something like "well, DPI doesn't apply once a ball is tipped so the defenseless player rule doesn't, either".

The definition of what a defenseless player is, in full:

Article 7: Players in a Defenseless Posture. It is a foul if a player initiates unnecessary contact against a player who is in a defenseless posture.
(a) Players in a defenseless posture are:
(1) A player in the act of or just after throwing a pass;
(2) A receiver attempting to catch a pass; or who has completed a catch and has not had time to protect himself or has not clearly become a runner. If the receiver/runner is capable of avoiding or warding off the impending contact of an opponent, he is no longer a defenseless player;
(3) A runner already in the grasp of a tackler and whose forward progress has been stopped;
(4) A kickoff or punt returner attempting to field a kick in the air;
(5) A player on the ground;
(6) A kicker/punter during the kick or during the return (Also see Article 6(g) for additional restrictions against a kicker/punter);
(7) A quarterback at any time after a change of possession (Also see Article 8(f) for additional restrictions against a quarterback after a change of possession);
(8) A player who receives a ―blindside block when the offensive blocker is moving toward or parallel to his own end line and approaches the opponent from behind or from the side, and
(9) A player who is protected from an illegal crackback block (see Article 2);
(10) The offensive player who attempts a snap during a Field Goal attempt or a Try Kick.

Where's the exception saying it a receiver attempting to make a catch isn't defenseless if the ball was previously tipped? Seems pretty odd to me that if a tipped ball created an exception that the definition of what defenseless is wouldn't refer to that, even if the exception is in another part of the rulebook. But I'm happy to admit I'm wrong if you can point me to wherever in the rulebook it says a tipped ball negates "defenseless".

letekro · Dec 8, 2014

DaBruinz said:
Except there WAS a turnover because there wasn't actually a penalty since it was really a legal hit.. As I stated, Levy should never have made the announcement like he did.. But why bother with facts..

Your logic is flawed. In order for a turnover to be reviewable, there has to be, you know, a turnover. Since the penalty (which in and of itself cannot be reviewed) negated any subsequent turnover, there was no basis to review the play. Do you disagree with this?

neuronet · Dec 8, 2014

Bobsyouruncle said:
I think that definitively means there was no penalty. He hit him in the shoulder, not the neck area. This was not a case where he hit his torso then their helmets hit.

I find it hard to believe the "neck area" means shoulder. When writing this rule why didn't they use the word "shoulder" if that's what they meant? Within the rule they used the term "shoulder" so they did not apply the term "neck area" to mean shoulder anywhere else in the rule. Obviously in the rule writers mind the terms shoulder and neck area had two distinct definitions.

Now we're going to say the the rule writer suddenly in the middle of writing the rule changed his definition for "shoulder" to "neck area."

Browner's shoulder hit his helmet/neck. Just look at the picture. We should be objective folks. Yes, it sucked for us, but the call was not bad. Leave the whining to the Jets fans. The mistake was in calling it helmet-to-helmet, that's all.

Deus Irae · Dec 8, 2014

RayClay said:
BTW, surprised that Reiss doesn't know this. that was a textbook penalty, there isn't any doubt about it. Shoulder to neck, defenseless player.

Reiss doesn't " know" this, because it wasn't a penalty.

IllegalContact · Dec 8, 2014

neuronet said:
Browner's shoulder hit his helmet/neck. Just look at the picture. We should be objective folks. Yes, it sucked for us, but the call was not bad. Leave the whining to the Jets fans. The mistake was in calling it helmet-to-helmet, that's all.

there's another angle that shows at no time did the helmets make contact

neuronet · Dec 8, 2014

IllegalContact said:
there's another angle that shows at no time did the helmets make contact

First, they did glance off each other. Second, as we've pointed out by quoting the rules multiple times, it doesn't matter: shoulder contact with head/neck area is enough to get the defenseless player call. It's gonna get called 95/100 times. If it's browner, make it 100/100. The mistake was calling it helmet to helmet.

Deus Irae · Dec 8, 2014

neuronet said:
First, they did glance off each other. Second, as we've pointed out by quoting the rules multiple times, it doesn't matter: shoulder contact with head/neck area is enough to get the defenseless player call. It's gonna get called 95/100 times. If it's browner, make it 100/100. The mistake was calling it helmet to helmet.

The mistake was calling it a penalty, because it wasn't a penalty.

Ring 6 · Dec 8, 2014

Calling it head to head was wrong.
It would seem that the research done in this thread uncovered something I did not know, and that a shoulder to the 'neck area' would result in a penalty.
Given that your shoulder is connected to your neck, its hard to not call shoulder to shoulder the same as shoulder to neck area.
I disagree with the rule itself, but knowing the rule it would be homeristic and/or simply ignorant to realize the call was legitimate.

Ring 6 · Dec 8, 2014

Deus Irae said:
The mistake was calling it a penalty, because it wasn't a penalty.

If it was just demonstrated that the rule book states that hitting a defenseless receiver in the neck area with your shoulder is a penalty, then on what basis do you say this isn't a penalty?
Where do you think the contact was, and how are you defining 'neck area' because if it didn't include the area adjacent to the neck, the rule would say neck.

Browner's penalty negating McCourty TD

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