Bedard on Pats DB Coaching

RayClay said:

It's equally as reasonable as not. You don't reliably get starting corners that low, but you might. that's probably why he tried to stockpile picks. His small stakes gambling wasn't successful.

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oh jeezus....talk about saying nothing at all.......there are many good starters out there taken after the pats picked......you're basically just making blind excuses

I watched a quarterback playing at an MVP level make excellent throws on third down to receivers who had decent to tight coverage on them from the defensive backs.

One play, Ryan bit on a double move by Adams, yet recovered in time to make a play on the ball, trying to swat it out as Adams brought it in for a great catch along the sideline. That was an absolute pinpoint throw by Rodgers.

I do not see a problem, hitherto, with the defensive back coaching after one close loss against a juggernaut offense at their home field, where the quarterback had success picking up first downs on key third downs against the nickel and dime defensive backs.

In today's NFL, where the rule changes heavily favor passing offense, playing defensive back (and defense in general) seems exceedingly difficult.

Defenses have to be able to get consistent pressure and display tight coverage against all these fantasy football era offenses, and even then, it may not matter thanks to the emphasis on contact that has been manifest since 2004. There have been many drives over this span that have been extended thanks to questionable and/or tricky tack calls away from the play that bail out offenses (and this goes for all 32 teams).

Brady6 said:

The issue is most of these players were not late round draft picks:

Logan Ryan #83 overall in 2013
Duron Harmon #91 overall in 2013
Tavon Wilson #48 overall in 2012
Alfonzo Dennard #224 overall in 2012
Ras-I Dowling #33 overall in 2011
Devin McCourty #27 overall in 2010
Pat Chung #34 overall in 2009
Darius Butler #41 overall in 2009
Terrence Wheatley #62 overall in 2008

With the exception of Alfonzo Dennard these players were all top 100 draft picks.

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So what?

captain stone said:

That's because the OL sucked earlier this season, and didn't exactly cover itself in glory yesterday.

Fact: Joshie Boyer (and/or the CB teaching method he regurgitates) sucks. Period. End of Story.

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Awesome, another one of the missing children turns up after 7 weeks on the milk carton. Glad to see you are safe and miserable as you always were. Sorry about the Patriots winning streak, that must have been hell for you.

BradyManny said:

Agree completely. Rodgers was a beast all Sunday, and he makes his third wide receivers look better than our third DBs. No shame in that.

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Not only that, but the talk of technique after a game like that, especially when the play that changed the outcome of the game was the Jordi Nelson TD given up by Revis, the greatest CB I've ever seen play the game, just seems like a massive stretch to me.

For the past month + we've been proclaiming this secondary as the best in the BB Era. Now they have technique issues, all except Revis and BB?

I agree, I do have some questions as to why some DB's haven't developed the way we thought, but I don't think it's going to be the reason why we lose games. Our secondary is the strength of this defense this year.

sevengables_2207 said:

I do not see a problem, hitherto, with the defensive back coaching after one close loss against a juggernaut offense at their home field, where the quarterback had success picking up first downs on key third downs against the nickel and dime defensive backs.

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The problem is that Ryan and Dennard showed flashes of starter ability in their rookie seasons only to look overmatched against the third receivers of a team with middling third receivers. NE was supposed to have a big advantage going into that game since GB didn't have much to offer after their top 2.

If that were the only data point, it could be easily dismissed, but it is true that since 2009, only two DBs - Dennard and Chung - didn't have a significant drop off in their second years (though neither's third looks all that hot). It happened to Butler, it happened to McCourty, it happened to Wilson and it appears to be happening to Harmon and Ryan. That is much harder to ignore.

Despite that, I have a hard time buying into the "Boyer Sucks!" crowd. Do you really think that Bill isn't completely aware of how his DBs are being coached? Do you think that, even in the unlikely event that Boyer is going against Bill's teachings, that it wouldn't be spotted on film? Boyer is just an easy target, if you are going to make that case, go straight to the top where the focus belongs.

Of course, even that could be overly simplistic. Maybe the players weren't as good as we hoped and their flaws were exposed on film. Maybe their roles were expanded or altered forcing them to do things they weren't as comfortable with. Maybe the coaching sucks. Maybe it is something else entirely or a combination thereof.

The subject is worth exploring, I'd just prefer it went beyond scapegoating.

Brady6 said:

Did you read the other persons post?

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Oswlek said:

The problem is that Ryan and Dennard showed flashes of starter ability in their rookie seasons only to look overmatched against the third receivers of a team with middling third receivers. NE was supposed to have a big advantage going into that game since GB didn't have much to offer after their top 2.

Even then, if that were the only data point, it could be easily dismissed, but it is true that since 2009, only two DBs - Dennard and Chung - didn't have a significant drop off in their second years (though neither's third looks all that hot). It happened to Butler, it happened to McCourty. It happened to Wilson and it appears to be happening to Harmon and Ryan. That is much harder to ignore.

Even despite that, I have a hard time buying into the "Boyer Sucks!" crowd. Do you really think that Bill isn't completely aware of how his DBs are being coached? Do you think that, even in the unlike event that Boyer is going against Bill's teachings, that it wouldn't be spotted on film? Boyer is just an easy target, if you are going to make that case, go straight to the top where the focus belongs.

Of course, even that could be overly simplistic. Maybe the players weren't as good as we hoped and their flaws were exposed on film. Maybe their roles were expanded or altered forcing them to do things they weren't as comfortable with. Maybe the coaching sucks. Maybe it is something else entirely or a combination thereof.

The subject is worth exploring, I'd just prefer it goes beyond scapegoating.

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according to some, you can't even ask the question

the last 5 corners drafted in the 2nd and 3rd round have ALL failed.... some here will insist that it's not the scouting and it's not the coaching........just karma, I guess

The Patriots secondary has been excellent this season, not sure why we are discussing them sucking right now. Previous seasons I could see it. Righjht now not so much.

Ivan said:

The Patriots secondary has been excellent this season, not sure why we are discussing them sucking right now. Previous seasons I could see it. Righjht now not so much.

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I believe the questioning is based on the idea that after spending so many draft picks on DB, why they had to go out and get 3 guys from somewhere else to start back there...(chung was gone and came back because......they guys they picked after suck even worse)

whether it is scouting or coaching, somethings not working right.......they killed our nickle back and they looked helpless

Oswlek said:

The problem is that Ryan and Dennard showed flashes of starter ability in their rookie seasons only to look overmatched against the third receivers of a team with middling third receivers. NE was supposed to have a big advantage going into that game since GB didn't have much to offer after their top 2.

Even then, if that were the only data point, it could be easily dismissed, but it is true that since 2009, only two DBs - Dennard and Chung - didn't have a significant drop off in their second years (though neither's third looks all that hot). It happened to Butler, it happened to McCourty, it happened to Wilson and it appears to be happening to Harmon and Ryan. That is much harder to ignore.

Even despite that, I have a hard time buying into the "Boyer Sucks!" crowd. Do you really think that Bill isn't completely aware of how his DBs are being coached? Do you think that, even in the unlike event that Boyer is going against Bill's teachings, that it wouldn't be spotted on film? Boyer is just an easy target, if you are going to make that case, go straight to the top where the focus belongs.

Of course, even that could be overly simplistic. Maybe the players weren't as good as we hoped and their flaws were exposed on film. Maybe their roles were expanded or altered forcing them to do things they weren't as comfortable with. Maybe the coaching sucks. Maybe it is something else entirely or a combination thereof.

The subject is worth exploring, I'd just prefer it goes beyond scapegoating.

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I agree it is worth exploring, and also may add that IMO it is lazy and reductive analysis to pin the blame squarely on coaching.

There are other factors when assessing the play of defensive backs over a certain time frame. Coaching is an important factor, but not the only one or the "mea culpa" in this case.

Also, Devante Adams is quite a talented rookie receiver who is probably going to take Randall Cobb's place next year if the latter is not resigned. I do not think he falls under the category of "middling".

Ted Thompson is probably the best in the business at drafting receivers and the Green Bay coaches are up there getting them ready to produce Sunday in and out.

If the Patriots nickel and dime backs start getting beat consistently by the upcoming WR3's and WR4's of their opponents (SD, MIA, NYJ, BUF) of which to my knowledge are in fact "middling", then there would be more concern going into the post-season, where weakness is seemingly magnified and game planned for.

RayClay said:

Revis was a great pick at #14. How many DBs on thelist did we pick in the top 15? The answer is zero. We traded picks and drafted a bunch of predominantly low second, third and fourth picks. Outside of Samuel, who we certainly did help become a top CB, mostly by scouting his ability, out of the 4th, we had a lot of injuries and mediocre players, using mediocre picks.

Again, I don't think you get top cornerbacks consistently and you certainly don't build them out of clay. You need to either risk a very high pick, on a guy that could still be injured or fail, or you use the shotgun approach.

We drafted very low to get McCourty and converted him into one of the top safeties and got big bang clock hoping he'd develop a brain, so that's 50/50 on low round firsts and a bunch of crap shots.

I'm really surprise that Bedard thinks you can develop cornerbacks. It's really a position we're they're more born than made, which is probably why they've gambled on injured ones. Without risking a high first round pick (which still bust at this position) we don't have or trading our whole draft for one, you get players who either don't have the athletic ability at the position it's most crucial, or have attitude, injury or other concerns.

A third round pick with athletic ability, character, drive, smarts etc. is a 1st round pick. It's like drafting a bunch of outfielders hoping one becomes a shortstop. Not a learned skill.

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I decided to look at the top 10 teams (hooray power-rankings) in the league's depth charts and chart where their top 2 CB's were drafted, if at all, to test your hypothesis (as I understand it, via the bolded language above):

Bonus - #1 Pass Defense (Yards Allowed) = Kansas City:
Parker UDFA ; Smith 2nd round

10. Miami:
Grimes Undrafted; Finnegan 7th round

9. Detroit
Mathis 2nd round; Slay 2nd round

8. Dallas
Carr 5th round; Scandrick 5th round

7. Arizona
Peterson 1st round; Cromartie 1st round

6. Indy
Davis 1st round; Toler 4th round

5. Seattle
Sherman 5th round; Maxwell 6th round

4. Philly
Williams 7th round; Fletcher 3rd round

3. Denver
Talib 1st round; Harris UDFA

2. New England
Browner UDFA ; Revis 1st round

1. Green Bay
Shields UDFA; Williams UDFA

Clearly, there's minimal, if any, correlation between playing winning football and relying on CB's drafted early. Looks to me like there are coaches out there who can take UDFA's and help them become starters for teams who will play in the playoffs and win Superbowls.

Obviously this isn't the end-all, most elaborate analysis of this topic possible, but I think it's enough to defeat the notion that the Patriots coaches' role shouldn't be questioned for not developing CB's since they didn't draft them high in the 1st round.

Some comments on the comments:

This whole conversation is ludicrous to some degree. Think about it. In today's NFL defensive backs by definition LOSE 60-7o% of their battles with offensive players. Then you can add the reality that there are many cases that regardless of how well the play is being covered, a perfectly thrown pass or great.catch will create a completion.

I just wonder what exactly does Bedard think that the Pats staff ISN'T teaching them. Why are people shocked when superior athletes with great quickness and skills are able to a beat by a half step a defensive player who doesn't have the advantage of knowing the pass route. What SHOULD be shocking is that they are able to stay with them at all.

Ryan had 2 good double moves put on him by Adamms. In both cases he recovered and was in reasonable position to defend the pass. In both cases just slight under throws or over throws would have caused incompletions. In both cases however the passes were just perfect.

I'm not sure what Bedard would have wanted. If he had played on top of Adamms and he caught a key pass underneath would he criticize Ryan's coaching for allowing the catch? Think about it for a second. Given the extraordinary size and skills of the receivers, the technology of the gloves, the complexity of the offenses, and the ludicrousness of the rules, its a miracle they ever defend a pass. Can you think of another professional athlete who has a harder job than a DB in the NFL.

I really like Bedard, mostly because he makes an effort to make his opinions based on as much knowledge as he can. He actually puts some work in before he opens his mouth. But in the end all they are, are just that.....opinions, no better or worse than ours (if we have the all 22 and put in the work)

And to add a touch of reality to this thread. think about this. There are over 300 DB's playing in the NFL right now, probably 250 of them were drafted. Of that group, how many would most fans think were good in pass coverage......10...15.....maybe 20. So listing all the Pats DB's that were drafted since 2000 and pointing out the mediocrity is stupid, since every team could do the same.

Brady6 said:

The issue is most of these players were not late round draft picks:

Logan Ryan #83 overall in 2013
Duron Harmon #91 overall in 2013
Tavon Wilson #48 overall in 2012
Alfonzo Dennard #224 overall in 2012
Ras-I Dowling #33 overall in 2011
Devin McCourty #27 overall in 2010
Pat Chung #34 overall in 2009
Darius Butler #41 overall in 2009
Terrence Wheatley #62 overall in 2008

With the exception of Alfonzo Dennard these players were all top 100 draft picks.

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I guess I'm confused about what this thread is about. Is it about our drafting? I thought it was about whether Josh Boyer is able to adequately develop CBs from a technique standpoint.

Boyer was the DB coach from 2009-2011, and the CB coach from 2012 to present. I doubt he had much influence on the drafting of Tavon Wilson or Duron Harmon, both safeties. Wheatley was drafted before he was a secondary coach. The CB coach obviously has some input on player drafting, but he's only one of several voices. Scouts and player personnel people are also heavily involved. I'm not sure one can lay the decision for drafting the players listed at his door. It's also not at all clear to me that McCourty, Ryan and Dennard are bad players for where they were drafted. Dowling didn't work out due to injuries and probably a lack of drive to success, not due to technical development. Chung was asked to do too much and regressed (injuries probably also played a role), but seems to be thriving in a more focused role and in a more talented secondary.

It seems to me that this thread has devolved into a "bash everything related to the secondary, and blame it on Boyer". Given that we probably have the best secondary in the NFL, and gave up 2 TDs to the hottest QB in the game on the road when he made a bunch of perfect throws, often with a lot of time to find the open man, seems a bit like piling on for no good reason.

Oswlek said:

The problem is that Ryan and Dennard showed flashes of starter ability in their rookie seasons only to look overmatched against the third receivers of a team with middling third receivers. NE was supposed to have a big advantage going into that game since GB didn't have much to offer after their top 2.

If that were the only data point, it could be easily dismissed, but it is true that since 2009, only two DBs - Dennard and Chung - didn't have a significant drop off in their second years (though neither's third looks all that hot). It happened to Butler, it happened to McCourty, it happened to Wilson and it appears to be happening to Harmon and Ryan. That is much harder to ignore.

Despite that, I have a hard time buying into the "Boyer Sucks!" crowd. Do you really think that Bill isn't completely aware of how his DBs are being coached? Do you think that, even in the unlikely event that Boyer is going against Bill's teachings, that it wouldn't be spotted on film? Boyer is just an easy target, if you are going to make that case, go straight to the top where the focus belongs.

Of course, even that could be overly simplistic. Maybe the players weren't as good as we hoped and their flaws were exposed on film. Maybe their roles were expanded or altered forcing them to do things they weren't as comfortable with. Maybe the coaching sucks. Maybe it is something else entirely or a combination thereof.

The subject is worth exploring, I'd just prefer it goes beyond scapegoating.

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Before Sunday, a lot of people were suggesting that Browner could be a cap casualty in 2015, and that the secondary would be fine with Revis and our other DBs. Now suddenly we have Revis and Browner, and nothing else.

This thread is a perfect example of knee jerk reactions, cherry picking, and piling on (discussing DB draft choices, which has nothing to do with their technical development, for example). It's a farce. Time for the "thread ignore" option.

If our whole DB crew could play with the technique Revis does, we'd be giving up like 6 points a game. There's a reason he's the best in the game. Did Boyer suck when they shut down the Lions, too? They were playing against a HOF QB this past Sunday, on the road.

mayoclinic said:

I guess I'm confused about what this thread is about. Is it about our drafting? I thought it was about whether Josh Boyer is able to adequately develop CBs from a technique standpoint.

Boyer was the DB coach from 2009-2011, and the CB coach from 2012 to present. I doubt he had much influence on the drafting of Tavon Wilson or Duron Harmon, both safeties. Wheatley was drafted before he was a secondary coach. The CB coach obviously has some input on player drafting, but he's only one of several voices. Scouts and player personnel people are also heavily involved. I'm not sure one can lay the decision for drafting the players listed at his door. It's also not at all clear to me that McCourty, Ryan and Dennard are bad players for where they were drafted. Dowling didn't work out due to injuries and probably a lack of drive to success, not due to technical development. Chung was asked to do too much and regressed (injuries probably also played a role), but seems to be thriving in a more focused role and in a more talented secondary.

It seems to me that this thread has devolved into a "bash everything related to the secondary, and blame it on Boyer". Given that we probably have the best secondary in the NFL, and gave up 2 TDs to the hottest QB in the game on the road when he made a bunch of perfect throws, often with a lot of time to find the open man, seems a bit like piling on for no good reason.

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well it is broken down this way....

question 1: based on the DB drafting of the last 5-6 years, is it reasonable to expect a better result from where those guys were drafted? I happen to think yes

question 2: based on question 1, what is the primary root cause of this issue? is it scouting or coaching? I think it is both....for the most part, the guys they brought in are much more physical than the ones they have been drafting. however, one can also see coaching as so many of these guys havepromising starts as rookies, only to tail off badly afterwards.

Ivan said:

The Patriots secondary has been excellent this season, not sure why we are discussing them sucking right now. Previous seasons I could see it. Righjht now not so much.

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Revis and Browner have been excellent this season, I think people were hoping (expecting) to see more from Dennard and Ryan, and after Ryan getting exposed against GB, people are now revisiting an area of concern for the Pats going back almost a decade.

IllegalContact said:

I believe the questioning is based on the idea that after spending so many draft picks on DB, why they had to go out and get 3 guys from somewhere else to start back there...(chung was gone and came back because......they guys they picked after suck even worse)

whether it is scouting or coaching, somethings not working right.......they killed our nickle back and they looked helpless

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The secondary has been the strength of this team, not its Achilles heel, and the reason to go get Revised and Browner is because they were available and would significantly upgrade this secondary no !matter who they drafted prior to this season. Belichick knew who they would face this season both at QB and at WR and he went out and got the pieces to actually be able to handle Manning, Luck, Rodgers and WR's like D. Thomas, AJ Green, J. Nelson, R.Cobb, T.Y Hilton, R. Wayne, K. Allen....

Have they missed on 2nd and 3rd round picks-absolutey, it would be foolish to suggest they haven't, however the same can be said for every team in football, especially those teams who actually have to pick at the end of every round every draft. Trying to extrapolate that to suggest that Belichick is a bad GM however is idiocy, and that is almost always the tack those taking shots at his picks are shooting for.

Belichick has put together a great secondary, people should be happy about that rather than trying to foind a way to turn it into a negative.