This defense compared to years past

RobertWeathers · Nov 25, 2014

supafly said:
Not to mention that the inclusion of the 1996 defense (who gave up 19.6 points per game, and were 28th in passing yards) over the much more dominant ones of 2006 (2nd in points allowed) and 2007 (4th in points allowed) seems to be a travesty in my opinion.

But hey--I respect his position.

After that Shannon Sharpe/Broncos debacle I remember the 96 D being close to dominant the rest of the way.

Were they as good as 01, 03, 04, 06, 07? I don't think so. Seemed like the those teams had more talent. The d-line on the 96 team was marginal. Everywhere else had a ton of talent though.

Were they as good as '14? I'm not sure. 1996 finished #8 in defensive passer rating which is pretty good.

Interesting stat on 1985. #1 in defensive passer rating that year...Bears. #2...Pats. Not too shabby.

AzPatsFan · Nov 25, 2014

VrabelJr said:
Stork seems to have panned out very nicely. Verdict is probably still out on Fleming but BB seems to like him. Cannon is also capable of playing either tackle position if we need him to. Our OL is decently deep.

At tackle I agree. But the interior reserves are questionable. That will be a project for the next Draft.

supafly · Nov 26, 2014

AndyJohnson said:
1996 (almost) finished strong, well they came one game short.
But yeah, not in the same class.

They may have even finished a bit stronger had Parcells not had one foot out the door, but hindsight is 20/20 I suppose.

Off topic--let's hope for some upsets in the rivalry games this weekend in the NCAAs, not that I mean to look past the biggest rivalry game of them all at the Shoe. The clock is ticking with only 2 playoff committee meetings that remain on Tuesday + next Tuesday.

Off The Grid · Nov 26, 2014

Off The Grid said:
I'm not knocking anyone for trying to decide which Year's Defense was the best ~ if you enjoy that sort of thing, more power to ya!! Different strokes, and all that.

My approach is to ask if this Defense is shaping up to be ~ not if it is, but if it is shaping up to be ~ on the same Top Shelf as our Defenses of 2001, 2003, and 2004, which I consider to've been unquestionably the best 3 Defenses we've fielded in the Bill Belichick Era. The 2002 Defense could be run on consistently, the Year before we acquired the Services of Mount Washington, and the Championship Defense of the early decade went into a slow decline after Teddy Ice Cold's Heart Attack after the 2004 Championship.

And I really don’t think you can quantify these things with Statistics.

Personally, I consider the 2004 Defense Hands Down the best of'm all: That was the 1st Year of the Polian & Manning Fan Boy Club Rule Changes, which immediately precipitated Manning's breaking Marino's TouchDown Record...and yet when we met in the PlayOffs, we held those caulksockers to 3 points.

3...freaking...points.

And that, Ladies & Laddies, was with a decimated Secondary.

The Colts were generally ~ yes, even around here, folks ~ expected to annihilate us.

Manning & Company had been unstoppable all Year long...until we stopped them cold.

3...freaking...points.

January...will be the true test of this Defense.

And by God, I like our Chances.

mayoclinic said:
Absolutely. And nice to see you back, Brother Grid.

I don't much go for comparisons between years. But, to my eye:

1. This is the deepest defense BB has ever had.

2. This is the most versatile defense BB has ever had.

3. This is the best secondary BB has ever had.

I like our chances, too.

Thank you, Sir.

glm · Nov 26, 2014

If you take out the Miami and KC debacles then the Patriots are ranked first in defensive points per game. I'm just saying.

AzPatsFan · Nov 28, 2014

nabwong said:
Because the rules are so in favor of the offense now, I think this is the best D we've ever had.

I agree wholeheartedly that this is the best Defensive team the Pats have ever fielded. I say that in Front line talent, as well.

There is simply no other Pats Defense that was anywhere near as deep as this one, on all three squads. Secondary since TC; and LBs and Defensive line since BB Trade-Deadline Talent Acquistion Romp; or the equivalent of Second 2014 Vet Draft.

Consider that BB acquired a First Round Run Stuffer, and a second and fifth round Starting LBs to augment existing solid squads with greater depth.

The Defensive ST have improved and are better than any other editionss too, while minimizing returns. Virtually every position on ST has a veyr good player there. From the gunners Slater and Jones to the ST LBs Casillas and White, to the ST Safeties Wilson, and EBner, to the ST Bolden. It also shows in the Offensive ST as well, with Edelmen at PR, and Amendola at KR, along with a superior KIcker in Gostkowski, and a good (and agile), Punter Allen.

AzPatsFan · Nov 28, 2014

RayClay said:
Revis is equivalent to Law IMO. Browner is a freak who is much better than the "big" cornerbacks we used to have as backups, our other CBs are so good at roles we can't fit Dennard, a recent starter, on the game day roster. This is the best secondary i've seen. since we play sub packages most of the time, it makes up for a lac at LB and Hightower and Collins and Browner and safeties are probably coverig TEs as well as we ever did IMO.

We've patched well elsewhere, but the secondary is awesome this year.

THe difference between most of these Defenses and the 2014 one is just this:

The 2014 Edition is Young, Deep and Rising.
Defenses like 2006 and 2007 were old, slowing down, and lacked Depth.

The 2014 edition has more quality Depth than any of them, with the possible exception of the 2001 secondary. We beat "The Greatest Show on Turf" because we could field 6 good DBs to match the at the time innovative 5 and 6 receiver setups that the Rams Offenses had.

But overall this Defense has much more quality Depth than any other Belichick squad. As I pointed out elsewhere it even has good defensive players on its ST too. Gostkowskis Touchback KOs and Allen's Field position altering Punts, contribute as well as the ST talent minimizing returns, like gunners Slater and Jones,and LBs Casillas and White and Safeties like Ebner and Wilson, and several others too.

AzPatsFan · Nov 28, 2014

patsinthesnow said:
It's amazing even after losing Jones and Mayo that I would still consider our front seven above average. Ninko, Wilfork, and Hightower are great players. Collins is approaching them as well.

IMO, Siliga is going to make a big difference for this D. He had 3 sacks in only 5 games last year and was by far our best DT at stopping the run when Wilfork went down. He'll be replacing the weakest link in our defense too, DT2 (C. Jones/Branch). I hope he returns for the GB game.

You don't need to denigrate Branch to promote Siliga. Siliga is a good DT. Branch is and was a much better talent than Siliga. Only now that he is close to adapting to his new Team, is Belichick tossing Kudos at him. More are sure to follow.

If they can re-sign him, he could be Wilfork's successor when VInce gets old and retires. Siliga wil lbe Branch's able sub. BB is already exhultant at what he acquired.

You had better start thinking of him as the 4th First rounder on our Defensive line. because that is in fact what he is, even if he was drafted at #33. Since he has been here the oppositionhas rushed for 18 and 44 yards per game. Vince and Alan make a great front wall.

UK_Pat37 · Nov 28, 2014

BobDigital said:
I wanted to have this thread but didn't know where to go with it. Comparing it to stats is not going to work as it actually looks worse than other Ds in the past that were not as good. Also to compare talent is hard to do but I think it is the best way to go. I will only look at the championship years.

2014 projected starters in the playoffs - DL Jones, Wilfork Easley Nink; LB Collins Hightower; DBs Revis Browner Arrington McCourty Chung - Look at this group you see a lot of top end talent with blue collar vets.

Now lets look at the Years the pats went to a Superbowl.

2001 - DL Seymour Hamilton Pleasant McGinest LB Bruschi Vrabel Phifer/Johnson DB Law Smith Milloy Jones (I cluded an extra guy as this was very hybrid). Some good solid vets but also big time playmakers. clearly SB caliber
2003 - DL Hamilton Washington Seymour LB McGinest Vrabel Bruschi Johnson DB Law Harrison Poole Wilson - Some changes but still a lot of the key players and arguably the best D the Pats ever had.
2004 - DL Seymour Wilfork Warren LB McGinest Vrabel Bruschi Johnson DB Law Samuel Harrison Wilson

Now the years that fell a bit short

2007 - DL Green (Seymour went down i think) Wilfork Warren LB Bruschi Vrabel Thomas Colvin DB Samuel Harrison Sanders Hobbs

2011 - DL Wilfork Nink Carter(went down i think; Anderson stepped in?) Love LB Mayo Spikes Guyton? DB McCourty Chung Arrington Ihedigbo

So i think that is mostly accurate and looked part of it up. Obviously depth matters too but I am not gonna look up all that : P

Looking comparing years is hard cause some players played better some years than other ones. However I think it is very clear to say this D is better than either 07 or 11. Looking at the talent now it was no wonder they lost. Don't know if it is better than any of those Superbowl winning years but I would say it is very arguable.

Overall I like the post but I'd raise something at the end.

We can't really blame losing in 2007 and 2011 on the defences. Okay we conceded both times ony two late drives and I think this is a more reliable unit in clutch situations, it was hardly like the defence struggled in these super bowls.

So that's an unfair comparison on them. Those two losses fall primarily on the offence.

But overall I agre yhisbis a far better unit overall.

AzPatsFan · Nov 28, 2014

mgteich said:
You are certainly free to not care about points scored against us. Personally, I think it matters when opponents score against us. I prefer a defense that allows fewer points, especially with a top 5 offense led by Tom Brady.

You say that you care about nothing else other than the quality of our secondary. Well, first, I agree that our secondary is the best we've had, comparable to the 2003 secondary.

IMHO, a top secondary is just not enough. If a team can't defend against the run, they won't have to worry about pass defense. We showed that against KC. We need (and have) a solid run defense. It doesn't need to be great, but the run defense must be at least somewhat effective.

Don't confuse the stats that include Games 1-4 with Today's Patriot defense. Its a differnt team now.

This team has added the equivalent of four veteran starters, including a Run Stuffer par excellance and a couple of starting quality LBs. Even without Mayo and the temporary loss of Chandler Jones, this Defense is prospering. Ayers has done a spectcular job filing in for Chandler. Hightower has grown into a great ILB and as a feared Pass rusher too.

AzorianPats · Nov 28, 2014

UK_Pat37 said:
Overall I like the post but I'd raise something at the end.

We can't really blame losing in 2007 and 2011 on the defences. Okay we conceded both times ony two late drives and I think this is a more reliable unit in clutch situations, it was hardly like the defence struggled in these super bowls.

So that's an unfair comparison on them. Those two losses fall primarily on the offence.

But overall I agre yhisbis a far better unit overall.

Agree on 07. Not counting the final drive, they still only gave up 17 points in the SB. If anyone where to say before that horrible Sunday, that's all the Pats D would have given up was 17 points. We all would have thought wed win that SB in a blowout!

Disagree on 2011. Looking back on it, I dunno how we made it to the game with that personal on D. We couldn't get off the field on 3rd downs.

Oswlek · Nov 28, 2014

AzorianPats said:
Agree on 07. Not counting the final drive, they still only gave up 17 points in the SB. If anyone where to say before that horrible Sunday, that's all the Pats D would have given up was 17 points. We all would have thought wed win that SB in a blowout!

Disagree on 2011. Looking back on it, I dunno how we made it to the game with that personal on D. We couldn't get off the field on 3rd downs.

The personnel was terrible, but the performance was good. Even considering the 3rd downs and TOP, they had held the Giants to 13 points when NE was driving for the clinching TD, and that was after the O put them right back on the field with a safety on their very first play.

patsinthesnow · Nov 28, 2014

AzPatsFan said:
You don't need to denigrate Branch to promote Siliga. Siliga is a good DT. Branch is and was a much better talent than Siliga. Only now that he is close to adapting to his new Team, is Belichick tossing Kudos at him. More are sure to follow.

If they can re-sign him, he could be Wilfork's successor when VInce gets old and retires. Siliga wil lbe Branch's able sub. BB is already exhultant at what he acquired.

You had better start thinking of him as the 4th First rounder on our Defensive line. because that is in fact what he is, even if he was drafted at #33. Since he has been here the oppositionhas rushed for 18 and 44 yards per game. Vince and Alan make a great front wall.

I posted that before the Lions game. Branch looked very good on increasing snaps. I agree that he will probably start the rest of the way.

Siliga, Ayers, C. Jones, and Easley off the bench once Chandler returns is pretty sweet depth.

If Easley continues to improve, come playoff time, we will have 4-5 decent pass rushers in our rotation (Jones, Ninko, Ayers, Hightower, Easley).

AzPatsFan · Nov 28, 2014

AndyJohnson said:
You left out the 01 team that held its opponents to 17 points or less in its last 9 consecutive games to go from 5-5 to SB chanmps, winning all 9. One of the greatest defensive achievements of all time.

Amen.

The 2001 edition of the Defense is downgraded by the Stat flacks because it was a growiing defense hurt by combining the Stats from early games. The SB defense was no where near the Start of Season 2001 D. 2001 is hence not as acclaimed.

That same argument applies to the emerging 2014 Defense. The early season problems have been resolved. The second half of the season does not resemble in any shape orform the Start of Season D. For example the SOS Defense was susceptible to the Run. That was with minor dings to both Siliga and Chris Jones, and a recovering and overworked Wilfork. It was before Casey was tried but who was only adequate; and then Branch eliminated the weakness, and turned it into a strength. Think of him as equivalent to acquiring Mt. Washington, but with more pocket collapsing push.

It was before Hightower grew into a more than dequate replacement for Mayo.

The arrivaal of Ayers and Casillas are as dramtic as the acquisition of Colvin was back then. People don't appreciate yet, just how much of a Coup, that Belichcik foisted on the League, and the Titans and Bucs.

mgteich · Nov 28, 2014

glm said:
If you take out the Miami and KC debacles then the Patriots are ranked first in defensive points per game. I'm just saying.

Would that be the case if the top two teams were to exclude their worst games?

pencilneckgeek · Nov 29, 2014

AzPatsFan said:
The 2014 edition has more quality Depth than any of them, with the possible exception of the 2001 secondary. We beat "The Greatest Show on Turf" because we could field 6 good DBs to match the at the time innovative 5 and 6 receiver setups that the Rams Offenses had.

6-receiver sets?! Now, that would be innovative.

saspack · Nov 30, 2014

GB shows this D is still not good enough against good O.

PATSYLICIOUS · Nov 30, 2014

saspack said:
GB shows this D is still not good enough against good O.

As pathetic as they've looked today, they have looked good against Denver and Indy - two elite offenses.

They're having an awful day, it happens and we'll see how they adjust if they ever need to face this offense again. But it's still the only poor outing against the top offenses we've faced. If it becomes a trend then you can make that claim.

glm · Nov 30, 2014

saspack said:
GB shows this D is still not good enough against good O.

The Packers scored 37.5 points per game since week 4. The Patriots held them to 26.

Brady_to_Moss · Nov 30, 2014

If this team had a pass rush we would have won today...lets hope we don't say the same thing come playoffs.

This defense compared to years past

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