Denver's TJ Ward a man of his word, goes low on 87 again

Ring 6 · Nov 11, 2014

Marinlik said:
There is a difference between throwing yourself head first at someones knee and wrap up on their thigh like the Seahawks do when they tackle. Both can bring big guys down, but one is a knee buster.

Well, this is where we disagree. I see Ward trying to tackle Gronk. You see him aiming at a knee.
In any event, we would have to agree that a football player coming in at full speed toward a ball carrier running at full speed could never be expected to hit a margin of error of 6 inches from contacting the thigh or the knee, right?

Marinlik · Nov 11, 2014

AndyJohnson said:
Well, this is where we disagree. I see Ward trying to tackle Gronk. You see him aiming at a knee.
In any event, we would have to agree that a football player coming in at full speed toward a ball carrier running at full speed could never be expected to hit a margin of error of 6 inches from contacting the thigh or the knee, right?

The tackling I'm talking about is not diving head first right into someone. It's not just about aiming for the thigh. It's about hitting with your shoulder, wrap around the legs and then roll or keep your legs going to stop the ball carrier. That is a way that you can hit low, bring big guys down, and avoid busting your own head or the opponents knee. Ward just flew head first right into Gronks knee without any plan on using his shoulders or arms.

Ring 6 · Nov 11, 2014

Marinlik said:
The tackling I'm talking about is not diving head first right into someone. It's not just about aiming for the thigh. It's about hitting with your shoulder, wrap around the legs and then roll or keep your legs going to stop the ball carrier. That is a way that you can hit low, bring big guys down, and avoid busting your own head or the opponents knee. Ward just flew head first right into Gronks knee without any plan on using his shoulders or arms.

Well there is a big difference between saying he is trying to injure and saying his technique is poor.
For many years wrapping up has been a lost art in the NFL. Many players hit without wrapping up.
I think we can agree that whether Ward wrapped his arms to make a better tackle or not, has no impact on injuring the player.

Marinlik · Nov 11, 2014

AndyJohnson said:
Well there is a big difference between saying he is trying to injure and saying his technique is poor.
For many years wrapping up has been a lost art in the NFL. Many players hit without wrapping up.
I think we can agree that whether Ward wrapped his arms to make a better tackle or not, has no impact on injuring the player.

Trying to wrap up and hit with your shoulder or trying to dive head first into the ball carriers knee definitely has an impact in the injury risk for the opponent.

I think it's pretty much the same kind of scumbag move like Merryweathers concussion tackles.

PatsFanSince74 · Nov 11, 2014

I've read most of this thread. Football-smart people are making football-smart arguments both ways.

Ward plays the game like he was no doubt taught to play it from elementary school. Hit hard. Bring the guy down. Make sure he knows he was hit hard. Is he aggressive? Sure looks that way.

But, Ward is no Jack Tatum. He's not trying to hurt or maim whenever the chance presents itself. There's no evidence of that. I don't see anything "dirty" in what people are describing here. What are we saying? That he should adapt his style if he's tackling someone with a history of injury?

I do disagree with those who say that the Refs should stop bending over backwards to protect the QB or receivers in the act of catching the ball, even if they call stuff that is incidental or accidental. However, when players (including QB's not going into a slide and Receivers who have secured the ball) are running with the ball, injuries from aggressive tackles are always going to be part of the game.

obgod3 · Nov 11, 2014

I think intent is the real issue, Ward even said what he would do Ward has made stupid comments before playing for the Broncos which reinforces his intent imho. If it was say any DB out there making that tackle i wouldnt put much emphasis on it but Ward has made it clear thats how he will play and I dont think for one minute that his intentions are sportsman like, I think if he hurts someone he is ok with that. Listen to the guy talk because he makes it pretty clear, I have seen him live and around town and he is kind of a punk.

Ring 6 · Nov 11, 2014

Marinlik said:
Trying to wrap up and hit with your shoulder or trying to dive head first into the ball carriers knee definitely has an impact in the injury risk for the opponent.

I think it's pretty much the same kind of scumbag move like Merryweathers concussion tackles.

Totally disagree. If you played the game, which I assume you did, you would remember that you are taught to hit THROUGH the ball carrier. The only difference in wrapping up on this tackle would be that he ALSO wrapped up.

Ring 6 · Nov 11, 2014

obgod3 said:
I think intent is the real issue, Ward even said what he would do Ward has made stupid comments before playing for the Broncos which reinforces his intent imho. If it was say any DB out there making that tackle i wouldnt put much emphasis on it but Ward has made it clear thats how he will play and I dont think for one minute that his intentions are sportsman like, I think if he hurts someone he is ok with that. Listen to the guy talk because he makes it pretty clear, I have seen him live and around town and he is kind of a punk.

He said he would hit low, which is legal. Which is also the best way to tackle a 265 lb TE when you are a safety. He did not say he would try to injure.

Rusty Coupe · Nov 11, 2014

This sums things up pretty well

Marinlik · Nov 11, 2014

AndyJohnson said:
Totally disagree. If you played the game, which I assume you did, you would remember that you are taught to hit THROUGH the ball carrier. The only difference in wrapping up on this tackle would be that he ALSO wrapped up.

If you try and hit someone in their thigh with your shoulders and drive through the ball carrier(or grab and roll) then it will be a lower injury risk than trying to tackle them by diving head first right at their knee.

Ring 6 · Nov 11, 2014

Marinlik said:
If you try and hit someone in their thigh with your shoulders and drive through the ball carrier(or grab and roll) then it will be a lower injury risk than trying to tackle them by diving head first right at their knee.

Ward did try to drive through his thigh area.
Grab and roll is not an effective open field tackling method.

obgod3 · Nov 11, 2014

AndyJohnson said:
He said he would hit low, which is legal. Which is also the best way to tackle a 265 lb TE when you are a safety. He did not say he would try to injure.

So it may sound weird but I agre, however TJ Ward has some history with trying to take guys out all the way back to 2010 on Jordon Shipley. He is a good player no doubt but my point is while I think Gronk can only be taken down with the legs I also think Ward has some intent on doing more than just taking a player down. I think he is that type of guy.

Ring 6 · Nov 11, 2014

obgod3 said:
So it may sound weird but I agre, however TJ Ward has some history with trying to take guys out all the way back to 2010 on Jordon Shipley. He is a good player no doubt but my point is while I think Gronk can only be taken down with the legs I also think Ward has some intent on doing more than just taking a player down. I think he is that type of guy.

Again, I just think its football. Safeties making open field tackles are going to injure players.
If they headhunt, they are trying to knock them out. If they go low, knee injuries will happen.
I just don't think that you can rail on a guy for tackling when the result of tackling is that people will get injured.
Sure we could pretend that when he is out there trying to win a game he can hesitate and think about whether there is a safe way to make the hit and be just as effective, but thats not realistic.
What does through his mind is getting the ball carrier on the ground. There really isn't time to plot how you are going to do it, it is 95% instinct anyway.
If that hit were by anyone other than the guy who unfortunately made the tackle that injured our 2nd best player last year, and on anyone else, this wouldn't even be a discussion.
I get that people are angry that he injured Gronk, but this is football.

TheBostonStraggler · Nov 11, 2014

AndyJohnson said:
But its football.
Players are going to get injured, including career ending injuries because it is a game of collisions. When it stops being that it stops being football.
I watch that play (and granted its not the best replay) and I can't tell if the hit is in the lower thigh or the knee. How could you expect a ref to effectively call that?
I just don't think you can play the game of football saying that you must tackle a player by hitting within only a certain target zone that is less than half the body. Yes I know they do that with the QB, and frankly, that has ****ified the game. Look at the calls we had in week 1, particularly HT because he tackled the QB and landed on him, or the silly calls when a guy running past the QB inadvertantly brushes up against his helmet.
We could turn it into flag football, but short of that, it is a game where a player is doing everything he can to not let you tackle him and you have to allow the defender a fair chance. Remember helmet to helmet hits are not an effective tackling method under any circumstances. Hitting between the thigh and ankle is.

I actually agree with you. My point was if the NFL is going to do what they are doing (ever more protective rules covering many scenarios) then launching at someone's knees has to be part of the list too. How can it not??

How could I expect the ref to effectively call that? I don't to a certain degree. Many of these new rules require a judgment call. It's among the reasons I don't like most of them. But, again, I think it comes down to consistency. It's ok to annihilate a player's knee, just don't horse collar tackle him or give him a hard hit when he's not ready?

Ring 6 · Nov 11, 2014

TheBostonStraggler said:
I actually agree with you. My point was if the NFL is going to do what they are doing (ever more protective rules covering many scenarios) then launching at someone's knees has to be part of the list too. How can it not??

How could I expect the ref to effectively call that? I don't to a certain degree. Many of these new rules require a judgment call. It's among the reasons I don't like most of them. But, again, I think it comes down to consistency. It's ok to annihilate a player's knee, just don't horse collar tackle him or give him a hard hit when he's not ready?

The league will flounder if it thinks that it can eliminate injuries with rules. That will ruin the game.
But we have to understand there is a line between actions that are part and parcel of playing and actions that are not necessary.
Taking away the horse collar does not affect the way you play the game. Taking away helmet to helmet hits does not prevent you from tackling.
Your reference to 'not ready' is part of the problem. It has now become if a hit looks painful, it becomes a penalty even if it is clean.
Tackling involves aiming at the waist. There simply is not enough distance from the waist to the knees to say hits at the knee level are illegal, and have any hope that proper tackling will ever happen. You will end up with Bear Hugs, and professional wrestling.
Football players get injured. The attention on limiting permanent brain injuries is wise. Trying to alter the game because of knee injuries in a game where knee injuries are common place and unavoidable is tilting at windmills IMO.

Jlaff · Nov 12, 2014

obgod3 said:
I have seen him live and around town and he is kind of a punk.

How tempted were you to dive at his knee head first?

EDIT: I got to thinking after, the civil consequences for you would be millions if you were successful in injuring him in the same way he injured Gronk.

If the NFL won't step in, what's stopping the players from taking a an action to court over these blatant attempts to injure? Certainly if Ward was successful a second time, something would have had to be done one way or another.

Brady_to_Moss · Nov 12, 2014

I don't wish injury on people...but if Pollard/Ward or Burfict suffered career ending injury..i wouldn't shed a tear i can tell you that much.

pencilneckgeek · Nov 17, 2014

DaBruinz said:
Tackling at the THIGH is not a cheap shot. And I can guarantee you that no one said a damn thing to Ayers yesterday other than to say "Nice Sack."

Actually, I was talking about the Denver coaches telling TJ Ward to stop his cheap-shot ways, so that Vince didn't plant Payton's forehead 6 inches underground in retaliation.

Denver's TJ Ward a man of his word, goes low on 87 again

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