To all the "Kraft is cheap" "we need Vjax" "trade for Fitzgerald/Johnson" folks

CMH said:

Thank you. A win like the one vs Denver in week nine shows what the team's ceiling is, but is irrelevant come playoff time. I wonder if the OP will make a thread saying "how silly they feel" if we come up short when it counts. Love the way the team is playing right now, but lets hold off on planning the parade.

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I'm not one of those if we don't win a superbowl every year the year was a failure type of people, I also don't believe in giving up on the future in order to MAYBE be better today.

short of a complete collapse in the playoffs you wont see me complaining about the moves BB made this year

CMH said:

Thank you. A win like the one vs Denver in week nine shows what the team's ceiling is, but is irrelevant come playoff time. I wonder if the OP will make a thread saying "how silly they feel" if we come up short when it counts. Love the way the team is playing right now, but lets hold off on planning the parade.

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I don't think that game showed their ceiling at all. I think they're still scratching the surface of how well they can play. Browner is just getting up to speed. Ayers is in his second week. Wright isn't fully integrated yet. Jones is hopefully coming back. I think there's a lot of room yet to improve.

Our main limiter is health, looks to me like we're on the same spot as we were last year at this time of the year.Last season with Gronk back from injury we peaked, we he got injured again we declined. That Broncos win is just as nice as it were last year.Still plenty of football left to be played and its unlikely that we will get through all those games intact. What i wanna see is the state of that team in January.

libra957 said:

looks to me like we're on the same spot as we were last year at this time of the year.Last season with Gronk back from injury we peaked, we he got injured again we declined.

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Gronk is no doubt important, but they aren't remotely in the same spot as last year. They are much deeper at WR, DL and CB than they were last year and thinner at RB. Totally different teams.

Deus Irae said:

So you're being sarcastic and using hyperbole about a position that's been an issue all season, and could obviously need an upgrade, because people were pointing it out?

Fascinating.

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I disagree that the Pats need receivers. Everyone forgets that the old truism is that it takes 3 years to groom a WR. Prime example are Demarius Thomas and Dez Bryant. Michael Crabtree may never develop, but merely be OK.

Dobson has already shown more than Thomas an Crabtree in his first, and even while sitting in his second season, where he isn't even always active, because the Pats have so many receivers.

rochrist said:

I don't think that game showed their ceiling at all. I think they're still scratching the surface of how well they can play. Browner is just getting up to speed. Ayers is in his second week. Wright isn't fully integrated yet. Jones is hopefully coming back. I think there's a lot of room yet to improve.

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I agree. Belichcick ever the Coach pointed out the Pats dropped 5 passes and three TDs. Playing optimally, it would have been a 60-burger on the Broncos.

AzPatsFan said:

I disagree that the Pats need receivers. Everyone forgets that the old truism is that it takes 3 years to groom a WR. Prime example are Demarius Thomas and Dez Bryant. Michael Crabtree may never develop, but merely be OK.

Dobson has already shown more than Thomas an Crabtree in his first, and even while sitting in his second season, where he isn't even always active, because the Pats have so many receivers.

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I like the spirit, Az, but you might want to look up the stats for the wide receivers in question before saying Dobson compares favorably.

Oswlek said:

I like the spirit, Az, but you might want to look up the stats for the wide receivers in question before saying Dobson compares favorably.

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To be fair, Thomas only caught 22 balls his rookie season, so Dobson compares pretty favorably to that. Crabtree is a different story.

rochrist said:

To be fair, Thomas only caught 22 balls his rookie season, so Dobson compares pretty favorably to that. Crabtree is a different story.

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Sure, and he only had ~550 yards in his sophomore year, but I think we can reasonably conclude that his production was suppressed by QB play, something Dobson doesn't have to worry about.

CMH said:

Thank you. A win like the one vs Denver in week nine shows what the team's ceiling is, but is irrelevant come playoff time. I wonder if the OP will make a thread saying "how silly they feel" if we come up short when it counts. Love the way the team is playing right now, but lets hold off on planning the parade.

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I don't think anyone should be pointing out the success/failure of the system just yet--so I agree with you.

I can definitely see the OP's point. We can get by, and quite nicely, with the weapons available now. @patfanken made some nice points regarding the obstacles that a guy like VJax would have had, and that there are only so many balls to go around.

That said, I can also respect those who wanted to upgrade the position with a proven vet who would be able to contribute more come playoff time, as their stance makes a lot of sense as well.

In the end, my opinion is that it's probably better to have held off on a big move that may not warrant the kind of production that some were expecting. Then again, we'll all be pissed off if that serious need comes up due to various possible scenarios, and wish the move had been made.

supafly said:

That said, I can also respect those who wanted to upgrade the position with a proven vet who would be able to contribute more come playoff time, as their stance makes a lot of sense as well.

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It's like a lovely girl going off and getting plastic surgery because she thinks it will make her look better. Why modify what's already really great?

chasa said:

It's like a lovely girl going off and getting plastic surgery because she thinks it will make her look better. Why modify what's already really great?

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I fully understand, agree with (ultimately), and respect your stance--chasa.

That said, I still believe that we're going to improve the position in the offseason with a guy that will make everyone happy, pick up the system, and provide better overall value, so it may not be as far fetched as some believe. Only time will tell.

I'm not going to go back over the latest posts, because it's not really worth it. I'll just point out, on the "Middle-deep" concept, that no team has wen the SB in the post-2004 (a/k/a the Manning rules) era without having guys who could exploit that area that year:

Doug Baldwin/Golden Tate
Torrey Smith
Hakeem Nicks/Victor Cruz
Greg Jennings/James Jones
Marques Colston/Devery Henderson
Santonio Holmes
Plaxico Burress
Reggie Wayne/Marvin Harrison
Hines Ward/Antwaan Randle El/Cedric Wilson

ThatllMoveTheChains!!! said:

That certainly was the issue during their "run". I'd say they have a few other issues right now.

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I agree, but if they won a ring or two no one would be talking smack about their strategy.

Deus Irae said:

I'm not going to go back over the latest posts, because it's not really worth it. I'll just point out, on the "Middle-deep" concept, that no team has wen the SB in the post-2004 (a/k/a the Manning rules) era without having guys who could exploit that area that year:

Doug Baldwin/Golden Tate
Torrey Smith
Hakeem Nicks/Victor Cruz
Greg Jennings/James Jones
Marques Colston/Devery Henderson
Santonio Holmes
Plaxico Burress
Reggie Wayne/Marvin Harrison
Hines Ward/Antwaan Randle El/Cedric Wilson

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Interesting theory. What I find interesting is when you look at the WR groups of the opposing SB teams.

Doug Baldwin/Golden Tate vs Demarius Thomas/Eric Decker/Julius Thomas
Torrey Smith vs Michael Crabtree/Mario Manningham
Hakeem Nicks/Victor Cruz vs Gronk/Welker
Greg Jennings/James Jones vs Mike Wallace/Ward/Emmanuel Sanders
Marques Colston/Devery Henderson vs Wayne/Garcon/Clark
Santonio Holmes vs Fitzgerald/Bolden
Plaxico Burress vs Moss/Stallworth
Reggie Wayne/Marvin Harrison vs Muhammed/Berrian
Hines Ward/Antwaan Randle El/Cedric Wilson vs Engram/Darrell Jackson

I've bolded the grouping that I think had the better "middle-deep" receivers. Not surprisingly the team with the better grouping losses more often than not. Quite clearly there are other factors that are more important. Further I think the idea that Lafell/Edelman/Gronk can't threaten the middle-deep as well as some of these groupings is really stretching it.

BSR said:

I've bolded the grouping that I think had the better "middle-deep" receivers. Not surprisingly the team with the better grouping losses more often than not. Quite clearly there are other factors that are more important. Further I think the idea that Lafell/Edelman/Gronk can't threaten the middle-deep as well as some of these groupings is really stretching it.

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I guess I have to ask again.... Why do the people here insist on throwing out straw men and red herrings? Nothing in your post is remotely relevant to what I wrote, with the exception of your last sentence, which is just homerism writ large, since, you know, Gronk is not a WR and doesn't even belong in the discussion.

This place has lost its mind. I could get more honest and reasonable discussion at an Obamacare rally.

BSR said:

Interesting theory. What I find interesting is when you look at the WR groups of the opposing SB teams.

Doug Baldwin/Golden Tate vs Demarius Thomas/Eric Decker/Julius Thomas
Torrey Smith vs Michael Crabtree/Mario Manningham
Hakeem Nicks/Victor Cruz vs Gronk/Welker
Greg Jennings/James Jones vs Mike Wallace/Ward/Emmanuel Sanders
Marques Colston/Devery Henderson vs Wayne/Garcon/Clark
Santonio Holmes vs Fitzgerald/Bolden
Plaxico Burress vs Moss/Stallworth
Reggie Wayne/Marvin Harrison vs Muhammed/Berrian
Hines Ward/Antwaan Randle El/Cedric Wilson vs Engram/Darrell Jackson

I've bolded the grouping that I think had the better "middle-deep" receivers. Not surprisingly the team with the better grouping losses more often than not. Quite clearly there are other factors that are more important. Further I think the idea that Lafell/Edelman/Gronk can't threaten the middle-deep as well as some of these groupings is really stretching it.

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Having a WR corp that can work those zones is necessary, though not sufficient, there are other factors at work.

Deus Irae said:

I guess I have to ask again.... Why do the people here insist on throwing out straw men and red herrings? Nothing in your post is remotely relevant to what I wrote, with the exception of your last sentence, which is just homerism writ large, since, you know, Gronk is not a WR and doesn't even belong in the discussion.

This place has lost its mind. I could get more honest and reasonable discussion at an Obamacare rally.

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Speaking of strawmen and red herrings:

Your quote: "no team has wen the SB in the post-2004 (a/k/a the Manning rules) era without having guys who could exploit that area that year"

No place in there does it mention anything about WRs and if you are going to throw receivers like Ward and Baldwin in there then I think including Gronk in there is just fine.

As for your "honest and reasonable" discussion, its really non-starter when you throw out examples like Baldwin, Ward, Jones and Randle El to justify your position that we need guys like VJAX over Lafell. You're not exactly talking a murderers row of receivers there. Further all you have to do is look at the Patriots last trip to the superbowl to see how close they came to winning it all without any real middle-deep threat what so ever.

BSR said:

Speaking of strawmen and red herrings:

Your quote: "no team has wen the SB in the post-2004 (a/k/a the Manning rules) era without having guys who could exploit that area that year"

No place in there does it mention anything about WRs and if you are going to throw receivers like Ward and Baldwin in there then I think including Gronk in there is just fine.

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Since the discussion was about WRs, it should have been obvious. You either didn't read the discussion, or you ignored it in favor of tossing out the red herring. Take your pick.

BSR said:

As for your "honest and reasonable" discussion, its really non-starter when you throw out examples like Baldwin, Ward, Jones and Randle El to justify your position that we need guys like VJAX over Lafell. You're not exactly talking a murderers row of receivers there. Further all you have to do is look at the Patriots last trip to the superbowl to see how close they came to winning it all without any real middle-deep threat what so ever.

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Who mentioned anything about a "murderer's row? Oh, right, nobody. There's another strawman.

Basically Dues your "point" was meaningless and failed to show any causation between quality middle-deep receivers and winning the superbowl.

As for me not reading the thread I suggest you go back and read it. The op refers to Gronk directly. He's referred to being a receiving threat frequently throughout. Your own post directly prior to the one I quoted refers to him. I shouldn't have to explain this to someone trying to have an honest and reasonable discussion.