Trick punt play

moosekill · Nov 3, 2014

Could someone explain why the refs held up the snap on the play where we sent the punt team out then put the offense back in? I saw in a tweet that Brady said they were held up to allow Denver to substitue players, but that they had already substituted. Which seems correct to me. Who is correct?

Onedaful · Nov 3, 2014

For what it's worth, and i take it with a grain of salt, the announcers, Simms and Nantz, said that the refs hold up the snap so the defense can get set? I don't know, I cant stand them at all so I'm not sure if it its true or not.

QuantumMechanic · Nov 3, 2014

It is true. When the offense substitutes the defense is not only given the right to substitute but the right to have the time to get set.

skspikex2 · Nov 3, 2014

Still a sight to see.

Patsfanin Philly · Nov 3, 2014

Onedaful said:
For what it's worth, and i take it with a grain of salt, the announcers, Simms and Nantz, said that the refs hold up the snap so the defense can get set? I don't know, I cant stand them at all so I'm not sure if it its true or not.

If the offense substitutes in players, the defense has a right to do the same. If the punt team was on the field and suddenly realigned to under center, the defense would not have been allowed to hold it up. Since they switched players ( all 11), the defense had a right to do the same.
The same is for hurry up offense. You can't substitute and try to catch thr defense off guard. But if you use the same eleven players, you can get tot he line of scrimmage and go from there quickly...

zoostation · Nov 3, 2014

rlcarr said:
It is true. When the offense substitutes the defense is not only given the right to substitute but the right to have the time to get set.

They were set.

Unless they didn't have 11 on the field, the Pats should have been able to run that play earlier.

QuantumMechanic · Nov 3, 2014

From the 2013 official rule book:

2013 Rulebook Rule 5 Section 2 Article 10 said:
DEFENSIVE MATCHUPS FOLLOWING SUBSTITUTIONS
Article 10 If a substitution is made by the offense, the offense shall not be permitted to snap the ball until the defense has been permitted to respond with its substitutions. While in the process of a substitution (or simulated substitution), the offense is prohibited from rushing quickly to the line of scrimmage and snapping the ball in an obvious attempt to cause a defensive foul (i.e., too many men on the field). If, in the judgment of the officials, this occurs, the following procedure will apply:
(a) The Umpire will stand over the ball until the Referee deems that the defense has had a reasonable time to complete its substitutions.
(b) If a play takes place and a defensive foul for too many players on the field results, no penalties will be enforced, except for personal fouls and unsportsmanlike conduct, and the down will be replayed. At this time, the Referee will notify the head coach that any further use of this tactic will result in a penalty for unsportsmanlike conduct.
Note: The quick-snap rule does not apply after the two-minute warning of either half, or if there is not a substitution by the offense.
(c) On a fourth-down punting situation, the Referee and the Umpire will not allow a quick snap that prevents the defense from having a reasonable time to complete its substitutions. This applies throughout the entire game.
(d) If the play clock expires before the defense has completed its substitution, it is delay of game by the offense.

Note item "(c)".

chasa · Nov 3, 2014

I think the issue was that Brady snapped it before all of the refs got into position after holding up the snap to allow the Defense to get set.

You see the Ref heading back to his spot, brady hiked it before he made it.

Ross12 · Nov 3, 2014

Item C specifics a punting situation, which the Pats were not doing. Furthermore, the entire article only says the ref must hold up the play to allow reasonable time for substitutions; it does not appear to mention allowing them to "get set".

QuantumMechanic · Nov 3, 2014

It says "reasonable time to complete its substitutions". I think that clearly means more than "manage to get back down to only 11 guys on the field, regardless of where they happen to be and how ready they are". If it only meant that, the rule would be a functional nullity.

And chasa above has a great point about the refs needing to be back in place as well.

BelichickFan · Nov 3, 2014

rlcarr said:
From the 2013 official rule book:

Note item "(c)".

It's just kind of tricky because the rules don't specify if you have to allow time for multiple substitutions on the same play. When our punt team went on, Denver had time to substitute their punt return team on. Which satisifies the rule. Now when we substitute a second time does the defense get a second chance ? Evidently so but it's not clear in the rules if that rules applies multiple times per play.

Gronkandez · Nov 3, 2014

I personally don't like that trickery. Both sides get confused. Why not just leave the offense out there from the get-go?
I think they botched a similar play earlier in the year as well.

SVN · Nov 3, 2014

Pats are going to do this in every game until they get it right.

Froob · Nov 3, 2014

Our guys knew what they were doing. denver could have easily gotten 12 men on the field

bigcountry75 · Nov 3, 2014

I just feel that if the Pats were going for it then they should have just snapped it to the upback and ran up the middle for the 1st down. The broncos had their smaller rushers for the punt and it would have been an "easier" opportunity than bringing the offense back on the field allowing Denver to bring in their big run stuffers.

voluntarysaftey · Nov 3, 2014

I'd rather see Garoppolo has the permanent holder so that there's always a threat of passing out of a punt; or if they were going to do this, they should've ran toward the sideline, but not off the field, then turned around gone back to center -- without the punt unit coming onto the field

Bobs My Uncle · Nov 3, 2014

I think BB used the large lead as an excuse to get the guys a little practice time in on this .....

DaBruinz · Nov 3, 2014

I was actually hoping for a snap to Ebner and them letting him run it for the first. He IS a former rugby player. It's what he does.

RayClay · Nov 3, 2014

bigcountry75 said:
I just feel that if the Pats were going for it then they should have just snapped it to the upback and ran up the middle for the 1st down. The broncos had their smaller rushers for the punt and it would have been an "easier" opportunity than bringing the offense back on the field allowing Denver to bring in their big run stuffers.

*Pat Chung with post traumatic stress syndrome*

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