League Low In Cash Payroll

mgteich said:

I am not talking about signing someone of Mankins cap value. As andy quite reasonably argued throughout free agency, the need I have been speaking about was for depth at LB, DE and DT. IMHO, even $2-4M might have provide additional significant depth. Belichick was not willing to pay that kind of money for other than a 3-down starter. And since, we had starters that Belichick was fine with, that was not going to happen. It is likely that no one available was worth $7M to Belichick.

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Pretty sure that he just spent that much on Walker, Ayers, Branch and Castilla.
Are you advocating $2mill-$4mill backups?

Belichick always had that money available, as long he knew that Mankins cap hit was not acceptable. So, either Mankins would have restructured his contract, freeing up money, or he was going to be moved, freeing up money. In either case, the cap money was there to spend.

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And he needs that money to cover the NLTBEs, unless you want him to spend it today pretending it wont be there next year. That would be very shrewd cap management indeed.

AndyJohnson said:

Cash spent in one season is irrelevant without context.
Once again you continue to make up a reason that you think something was done, then question the reason.

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I actually bit my tongue on replying to the OP for a little while because I wasn't sure how it was going to be received. mgteich, you've been unusually jaded towards our roster building this year. What gives?

mgteich said:

We won big last week.

So, everyone is more than happy that we have kept so much cap money in reserve.

We've signed Ayers, Casillas and Branch. We've added Wright. All are considered major contributors for now.
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We're 6-2. We "obviously" wouldn't have improved a lot if we signed any additional players at the cost of
$2M each against this year's cap.

We'll have this discussion again after we lose a game or two, presuming that such thing could happen.
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The Patriots only signed Branch.. They traded for Ayers, Casillas and Wright..
8.5M isn't really that much in reserve.. And it's going to be carried over to next year when they need to re-sign McCourty, Solder, and others.

I can't remember the last time the Pats carried over THIS much money if they ever have.. But it's a darn sight better than they were going into the 2000 season when they were significantly over the cap and had to sign a bunch of dregs who couldn't make it in the Arena league, let alone the NFL..

Manning has been on the Broncos since 2012. Why is this year's cash spending so important?

Only reason I see is that focusing on it increases page clicks.

DaBruinz said:

The Patriots only signed Branch.. They traded for Ayers, Casillas and Wright..
8.5M isn't really that much in reserve.. And it's going to be carried over to next year when they need to re-sign McCourty, Solder, and others.

I can't remember the last time the Pats carried over THIS much money if they ever have.. But it's a darn sight better than they were going into the 2000 season when they were significantly over the cap and had to sign a bunch of dregs who couldn't make it in the Arena league, let alone the NFL..

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The logical answer for why they are carrying it over is that they have a large amount of NLTBEs that probably will be earned.
It appears they are treating that as a 2014 cost because it is part of the 2014 roster instead of pretending it doesn't exist and figuring it out in 2015.

AndyJohnson said:

The logical answer for why they are carrying it over is that they have a large amount of NLTBEs that probably will be earned.
It appears they are treating that as a 2014 cost because it is part of the 2014 roster instead of pretending it doesn't exist and figuring it out in 2015.

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As well as the fact that the Wilfork and Mayo's bonuses would actually have been LTBE had they not gotten injured the year before.

Oswlek said:

As well as the fact that the Wilfork and Mayo's bonuses would actually have been LTBE had they not gotten injured the year before.

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This is where there could be discussion.
1) Was it wise to give them NLTBEs. I'd say of course, because it was injury protection in most cases.
2) Essentially this means that we took money that only a fool would not count on having to pay, and being given the choice to use it this year, or next. This being the excess over what would be needed for inseason manuevers. It should be noted that its a good thing that the in-season move reserve is higher, since we spent 1.6 mill on Walker, Casillas and Ayers, plus who knows what on Branch, I'd assume at least 700k and probably more.
3) The 'cap room' that we now have really is phony, because it will all be used in NLTBEs, so the real debate is do we charge that to this year, where it is actually being used on the field, or next.

The discussion would be the merits of a small amount of mortgaging the future, not crying about the old Patriots are cheap line, because of a misunderstanding of facts.

AndyJohnson said:

Was it wise to give them NLTBEs. I'd say of course, because it was injury protection in most cases.

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I always thought there was some determinant for whether something was LTBE or NLTBE. Meaning, it wasn't NE who coded Mayo's bonuses as NLTBE, it was league wide contract/cap rules. The same contract would have been considered LTBE had he not gotten hurt last year.

Am I mistaken?

Oswlek said:

I always thought there was some determinant for whether something was LTBE or NLTBE. Meaning, it wasn't NE who coded Mayo's bonuses as NLTBE, it was league wide contract/cap rules. The same contract would have been considered LTBE had he not gotten hurt last year.

Am I mistaken?

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I think its if you achieved it last year then its LTBE and hits this years cap. If you did not then its NLTBE and does not hit this year cap. Then when you achieve it, it goes to next year.
So if VW gets a 3mill bonus for playing 8 games, it is NLTBE but really is likely to be achieved so common sense says hold the money back.
Some are done with FAs to play cap games, but in most of the cases with the Pats it was in contracts that existed before last year.

AndyJohnson said:

I think its if you achieved it last year then its LTBE and hits this years cap. If you did not then its NLTBE and does not hit this year cap. Then when you achieve it, it goes to next year.
So if VW gets a 3mill bonus for playing 8 games, it is NLTBE but really is likely to be achieved so common sense says hold the money back.
Some are done with FAs to play cap games, but in most of the cases with the Pats it was in contracts that existed before last year.

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That's pretty much what I thought, which is why I was confused by your statement of, "was it wise to give them NLTBEs?" The bonuses are the bonuses, they only became NLTBE because of bookkeeping more than anything. It wasn't like Mayo's bonus relied on 15 sacks and 10 interceptions.

All the more reason why the team was smart in allocating resources this year for those costs. They would have been LTBE in any year prior.

Oswlek said:

That's pretty much what I thought, which is why I was confused by your statement of, "was it wise to give them NLTBEs?" The bonuses are the bonuses, they only became NLTBE because of bookkeeping more than anything. It wasn't like Mayo's bonus relied on 15 sacks and 10 interceptions.

All the more reason why the team was smart in allocating resources this year for those costs. They would have been LTBE in any year prior.

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It that case I was mostly thinking of Wilforks new deal.

AndyJohnson said:

It that case I was mostly thinking of Wilforks new deal.

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Sure, but even that one pays out a lot simply by him being active which is more likely than not, even if cap structure indicates otherwise.

Oswlek said:

Sure, but even that one pays out a lot simply by him being active which is more likely than not, even if cap structure indicates otherwise.

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Yes but that is a perfect example of the choice between pushing it to next year, or using it this year.
They could have paid him a higher salary and lesser bonusses.

DaBruinz said:

The Patriots only signed Branch.. They traded for Ayers, Casillas and Wright..
8.5M isn't really that much in reserve.. And it's going to be carried over to next year when they need to re-sign McCourty, Solder, and others.

I can't remember the last time the Pats carried over THIS much money if they ever have.. But it's a darn sight better than they were going into the 2000 season when they were significantly over the cap and had to sign a bunch of dregs who couldn't make it in the Arena league, let alone the NFL..

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2001 proved you can't win without spending a ton!

AndyJohnson said:

Yes but that is a perfect example of the choice between pushing it to next year, or using it this year.
They could have paid him a higher salary and lesser bonusses.

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Still not getting to the root of it, though. It isn't case of salary vs. bonuses when it comes to current/future. The bonuses protect the team in case he gets hurt again, but because of his injury last year are treated as NLTBE. Instead, the team chose to treat it in house as likely and allocated for it this year.

agree

Wilfork has a 2M 70% playing time incentive which is NLTBE but is highly likely to be earned.

If Wilfork plays in at least 70% defensive snaps and the Patriots make it to the divisional round of the playoffs, he earns a 500K NLTBE incentive.

If Wilfork plays in at least 70% defensive snaps and the Patriots finish in the Top 10 in points allowed, he earns a 500K NLTBE incentive.

Wilfork has an $87,500 46-man active roster bonus.

4 games = LTBE; anything more than 4 games = NLTBE. Pats lose $87,500 in cap space as Wilfork plays in more games in 2014 than he did in 2013.

AndyJohnson said:

I read just fine.


Suggested by who? Miguel wrote the article that suggested we needed 9.5mil cushion that you cited to say we are being cheap.


Of course we should ignore discussions that were based on incorrect facts.
Are you saying that since you were wrong about how much would need to be set aside for NLTBE that BB should have spent it anyway, to appease you? After all, you discussed it.


Did you really just pull a Deus Irae? You are better than that. Just to be sure, are you actually saying that my opinion is invalidated because instead of having one I just agree with everything, therefore you are smarter and more objective than me? Really?



It has nothing to do with 'after a win'. I don't see anywhere that I have said the decisions were good, great, bad, or indifferent, simply that you are wrong about what cushion is required if we do not want to push money to next year.
If you are advocating pushing money to next year, thats a different discussion.
This one is simply that you are wrong.

What did Akeem Ayers cost?
Its not a matter of what players were available.
Its a matter of a large chunk of cap space in the form of NLTBE that WILL BE earned that does not show up in the cap. If they were LTBE, or salary, we wouldn't have that cap space. Instead, it will be put on nexts years cap. BB has chosen to hold it back to move to next year, for now. I would imagine he may instead choose to use some of it to extend a player or 2, but its really the same thing.
If you are advocating hiding the cap money in NLTBE bonusses so that you can overspend this year, and then be 7mill+ in the hole next year, that is a different argument.


Those players were added after injuries. You are the one saying the injury reserve should have been less. With your plan, we wouldn't have been able to afford them. Amazing that a conservative approach to spending leads to being able to acquire players after injuries and you are complaining that we shouldn't have done that. I guess you want Vellano, White and Moore out there.

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1) Miguel's blog is below. You can show me where Miguel recommends a $9.5M cap after the beginning of season.

2) I am NOT the one who is saying the injury reserve should be less. The $2M suggested by Miguel (as he has for years) is fine with me, as long as there is also a cushion for NLTBE bonuses which cushion can be used if there are more injuries or opportunities (like Branch). The rental of Ayers and Casillas cost about $1.1M total, normal for in-season pickups.

Miguel made a suggestion in July. Most of us agreed with it. In September, Belichick chose to maintain an additional $3.5M. Miguel explained what purposes Belichick might use the cap money.

I don't understand your need to maintain that Miguel always suggested $9.5M or that somehow $9.5 was somehow essential.

3) I don't understand your idea that if we had spent an additional $2M on a backup, it would mean that Vellano, Moore and White wold get more reps. For example, if the money had been spent on a DT, perhaps Branch would not be needed. And yes, if a backup DE were signed, then perhaps Moore wouldn't have gotten the reps that he got when Jones was injured.

4) Most folks on this board were disappointed when Belichick chose to have a roster with 6 safeties instead of signing an additional backup in the front seven.

I haven't a clue why it is now such a huge controversy for me to suggest that we might have used $2M of the $9.5 for such a backup. Ayers and Casillas were fine pickups. Perhaps they will be part of the the team going forward, perhaps not.

5) The bottom line is that the strategy that almost all of thought was reasonable in July and August is unacceptable today. I applaud the ability to find 3 subs who seem to fit in: Walker, Ayers, and Casillas.
Presuming that 3 continue to work out, I guess we can say in 100% hindsight that subs weren't needed.

MIGUEL's BLOG FROM JULY 10
The cushion suggested was $6M, not the $9.5M that you now seem to think that we all favored. I certainly agree that once Belichick decided on the final cuts and the $9.5M, it was very reasonable to try to understand why Belichick would keep such a number. Miguel provided the many alternative uses for the additional cap money.

"Over the past couple of years the Patriots have used about 2 million dollars for in-season replacements.

I consider the Patriots to have at maximum 5.3 million in easily reached NLTBE incentives. Do not know if the Patriots leave themselves a cushion for those. Wanted to mention them since any reached NLTBE incentives in 2014 will likely lower the Patriots 2015 adjusted cap number. I am trying to guess at how the Patriots will handle having $5.3 million in NTLBE incentives. If they do not leave a cushion for them, the Patriots could end up with an adjusted cap number that is lower than the actual cap number. This is the first time I have seen the Patriots with so much easily attainable NLTBE incentives. Do the Patriots leave a 100% cushion? 0% cushion? Decided to split the difference. I am presuming that the Patriots do leave themselves a 100% cushion or $2,706,250 for the 46-man active roster bonuses and maybe have a 50% cushion ($1.3 million) for the other NLTBE incentives. That is, I guesstimate that the Patriots would like to leave themselves a 4 million cushion at the start of the regular season just to cover reached NLTBE incentives. Why a 100% cushion for the 46-man roster bonuses because as a player reaches that particular NTLBE incentive the amount of their incentive hits the cap the next week."

DaBruinz said:

The Patriots only signed Branch.. They traded for Ayers, Casillas and Wright..
8.5M isn't really that much in reserve.. And it's going to be carried over to next year when they need to re-sign McCourty, Solder, and others.

I can't remember the last time the Pats carried over THIS much money if they ever have.. But it's a darn sight better than they were going into the 2000 season when they were significantly over the cap and had to sign a bunch of dregs who couldn't make it in the Arena league, let alone the NFL..

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Do you really need to compare this team to the 2000 team. Yes, this team and the cap situation is indeed better than the team and situation that Belichick inherited in 2000. And yes, almost everything about running the team is better.

VrabelJr said:

I actually bit my tongue on replying to the OP for a little while because I wasn't sure how it was going to be received. mgteich, you've been unusually jaded towards our roster building this year. What gives?

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fair enough

I am not "jaded toward our roster building this year". I have supported almost every decision the team made in the off-season up until we traded Mankins. Belichick made many great decisions at many positions.

What I disagreed with is the combination of the Mankins trade and the moving so much of the cap money saved into 2015. Belichick has often gotten rid of a player a year early, so that is not my issue. I can understand that Belichick didn't think Mankins was worth his salary, and that Belichick received more than adequate compensation for TB. It don't follow that almost all of the cap savings should have pushed into 2015.

IMHO, we needed depth help at DE and LB (and some would say RB). We all thought that this couldn't happen because we were close to the cap, needing a $2M injury fund plus a cushion for NLTBE bonuses.

We all supported the idea of the cushion. We've had one since the SB years. It was the high size of the cushion that is interesting to me. Others wanted to spend $5-$7M on a difference maker in the defensive front seven or at WR. I never supported that. I understood, after our reminders from Miguel, that we needed the cushion.
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The DIFFERENCE in opinion now is that before the Mankins trade, we needed a cushion of $4M. After the trade (including the acquisition of a TE), somehow the need for a cushion went up to $7.5M (plus the $2M injury reserve).

I understood (with pain) bringing in JAG after JAG that were found wanting because we couldn't afford the $1M-$3.5M that better additional depth might cost. What we (and the OL coach) found out at the end was that the cap squeeze didn't exist. The $1M-$3.5M was available. Belichick had decided to increase the NTLBE cushion to $7.5M.
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I don't know why it so controversial to suggest that a million or two might have been used for a LB, DE or DT backup or two, when that position was the position of the vast majority throughout the off-season. Perhaps folks think that we had an absolute need for six safeties.
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Maybe it won't matter. Maybe we'll win the SB anyway (someone mentioned 2001). Perhaps, Walker, Ayers, Casillas and Branch will all be serious contributors and difference makers until Siliga and Jones come back at 100% for the playoffs.