League Low In Cash Payroll

I hope your wives spend to the cap every month.

mgteich said:

We won big last week.

So, everyone is more than happy that we have kept so much cap money in reserve.

We'll have this discussion again after we lose a game or two, presuming that such thing could happen.

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You seem very bitter about having some cap money in reserve. I'm not sure why. We've carried over money in the past, including from last year to this year. It seems to be SOP to not have your back against the wall in order to be able to maneuver during the season, and have some wiggle room. If you look at available cap space rather than money spent, it's not that huge. I guess I don't understand why you seem so upset about something that we've known about all season.

We're 6-2 at the half-way point of the season. We were 6-2 in 2010 and 2013 as well. We were 5-3 in 2011 and 2012. We've won 12 or more games each of the past 3 seasons, and been to the AFCCG for the past 3 seasons. I trust the FO knows how to spend Mr. Kraft's money reasonably wisely.

I officially know more about the Patriots cash flow now than I do my own.

Miguel, how much would you charge me to balance my checkbook?

If you want to know why the cash spent is so low, look no further than Tom Brady's contract.

The actual cash spent is only $2 million while his cap number is almost $15 million.

Then factor in the dead money allocated to AH (which meant there was over $7.5 million less available to spend) and the drop in cash spent this fiscal year due to trading Mankins, and it should be of absolutely no surprise whatsoever to anybody that the Patriots are going to rank so low in actual cash spending this year.



Shame on BSPN for assigning somebody who apparently has such a poor understanding of NFL team finances to write a column on the very same subject - though it's not surprising since their core audience is the casual fan with even less knowledge on this kind of subject matter than the author, that will accept the implied opinions as gospel truth.

Miguel said:

7 possible reasons for the Patriots to have about 9.5 million in cap space on September 13, 2014 | Patriots Salary Cap lists seven possible reasons for the Patriots cap space.

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Yes, this represented a very detailed explanation of what excess cap room might be used for. I was asking a different question. Each year we discuss approximately how much cap money is needed for the season, usually to cover in-season injuries. IIRC, that number has been about $2M, plus you have often suggested that team keeps a bit of a cushion, perhaps a million in case of an unusual number of injuries or to cover incentives. That total has been around $3M. Obviously there is additional money needed before the Game 1.

This year, you suggested that the incentives were higher and that the team might keep not $1m, but $4M as cushion for a total of $6M (including the $2M for injuries).
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I appreciate your tremendous efforts in helping us understand how the team might use the ACTUAL cap room kept, rather than that needed for injuries or a cushion; that is what the team might do with the additional $3.5M of cap room, that the team has chosen NOT to use in 2014.
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Folks seem to think that I am bitter because we chose not to spend $3.5M on 2014 and instead keep the money for the future. That isn't the case. Belichick made a choice. We shall see/specualte in the next 11 games whether it was reasonable or not to choose to forgo the additional players that even part of this money might have brought.

Bitter is not the correct word. Confused in the correct word.

Miguel analyzed the situation for us for months, discussing all the off-season cap tradeoffs and how much the team would need for all the offseason items, up to and including Player 52, Player 53 and the Practice Squad. The analysis was often, detailed and incredibly well done. The need was clearly stated in mid-July. We would need $2M for injury replacements during the year, and a suggested $4M for NLTBE incentives that would affect the 2015 cap. This was not a recommendation to the team, just a detailed analysis. This $4M was higher than in past years, since the possible incentives were higher.

And did the team choose to keep $6M? No, the team instead kept an additional $3.5M more in reserve. Perhaps, a contract extension with McCourty or Gostkowski or Vereen will be announced next week. My point is that JUST PERHAPS we needed more front seven depth on the 2014 team. This is not a new idea. We discussed this all through the offseason. And I don't think that it is unreasonable to discuss such issues at the half-way point of the season.

Clearly, my timing was bad. Discussing needs after a big win makes no sense to most. We can revisit this in a few weeks.
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I appreciate the optimism who see us at 6-2, and see us losing no more than 2 more games as has occurred in the past three seasons. We should be optimists. Why not?

mayoclinic said:

You seem very bitter about having some cap money in reserve. I'm not sure why. We've carried over money in the past, including from last year to this year. It seems to be SOP to not have your back against the wall in order to be able to maneuver during the season, and have some wiggle room. If you look at available cap space rather than money spent, it's not that huge. I guess I don't understand why you seem so upset about something that we've known about all season.

We're 6-2 at the half-way point of the season. We were 6-2 in 2010 and 2013 as well. We were 5-3 in 2011 and 2012. We've won 12 or more games each of the past 3 seasons, and been to the AFCCG for the past 3 seasons. I trust the FO knows how to spend Mr. Kraft's money reasonably wisely.

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mgteich said:

Folks seem to think that I am bitter because we chose not to spend $3.5M on 2014 and instead keep the money for the future. That isn't the case. Belichick made a choice. We shall see/specualte in the next 11 games whether it was reasonable or not to choose to forgo the additional players that even part of this money might have brought.

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I disagree. I think Belichick went after players he thought could help, then made deals if they were worthwhile. I would never think he went out and bought players just to spend a certain amount of money.

AndyJohnson said:

Who the F is 'we'.

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That's what I was wondering.

mgteich said:

Bitter is not the correct word. Confused in the correct word.

Miguel analyzed the situation for us for months, discussing all the off-season cap tradeoffs and how much the team would need for all the offseason items, up to and including Player 52, Player 53 and the Practice Squad. The analysis was often, detailed and incredibly well done. The need was clearly stated in mid-July. We would need $2M for injury replacements during the year, and a suggested $4M for NLTBE incentives that would affect the 2015 cap. This was not a recommendation to the team, just a detailed analysis. This $4M was higher than in past years, since the possible incentives were higher.

And did the team choose to keep $6M? No, the team instead kept an additional $3.5M more in reserve. Perhaps, a contract extension with McCourty or Gostkowski or Vereen will be announced next week. My point is that JUST PERHAPS we needed more front seven depth on the 2014 team. This is not a new idea. We discussed this all through the offseason. And I don't think that it is unreasonable to discuss such issues at the half-way point of the season.

Clearly, my timing was bad. Discussing needs after a big win makes no sense to most. We can revisit this in a few weeks.
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I appreciate the optimism who see us at 6-2, and see us losing no more than 2 more games as has occurred in the past three seasons. We should be optimists. Why not?

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Since when is an estimate of how much may be needed for in season transactions set in stone?
Where did you expect them to spend the mankins savings?
Bitter seems like the right word when you end with an "I'll say I told you so when the team starts to suck".
It's not about timing it's about a poor post from a bad perspective.

mgteich said:

Yes, this represented a very detailed explanation of what excess cap room might be used for. I was asking a different question. Each year we discuss approximately how much cap money is needed for the season, usually to cover in-season injuries. IIRC, that number has been about $2M, plus you have often suggested that team keeps a bit of a cushion, perhaps a million in case of an unusual number of injuries or to cover incentives. That total has been around $3M. Obviously there is additional money needed before the Game 1.

This year, you suggested that the incentives were higher and that the team might keep not $1m, but $4M as cushion for a total of $6M (including the $2M for injuries).
=========================================
I appreciate your tremendous efforts in helping us understand how the team might use the ACTUAL cap room kept, rather than that needed for injuries or a cushion; that is what the team might do with the additional $3.5M of cap room, that the team has chosen NOT to use in 2014.
==========================================
Folks seem to think that I am bitter because we chose not to spend $3.5M on 2014 and instead keep the money for the future. That isn't the case. Belichick made a choice. We shall see/specualte in the next 11 games whether it was reasonable or not to choose to forgo the additional players that even part of this money might have brought.

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If you bothered to read Miguel's article he listed at least 7 mill of NLTBE that have a good chance of being earned.
Add in 2 mill for injury replacements which we probably hit already through 3 trades/signings and there is the whole 9 mill.

It seems that they did exactly what you say they should do but you write this whiny post because you have the numbers wrong.

AndyJohnson said:

If you bothered to read Miguel's article he listed at least 7 mill of NLTBE that have a good chance of being earned.
Add in 2 mill for injury replacements which we probably hit already through 3 trades/signings and there is the whole 9 mill.

It seems that they did exactly what you say they should do but you write this whiny post because you have the numbers wrong.

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Reading has been your problem for quite awhile. We both read the article that AFTER THE FACT listed all the places that we might spend the cap money.

I was discussing the projections and suggestions made in July (you could have read the blogs if you chad chosen to), as I stated. I am NOT going to quote from Miguel. It's late. I'm tired. HOWEVER, let me just point out that Miguel did NOT suggest that there should be a reserve for 100% of the NLTBE bonuses that will might affect us next year. Perhaps $7M will be earned, but a 100% cushion is not what was suggested.
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And yes, perhaps we should IGNORE all the articles and discussions made throughout the offseason that suggested what we should or should have a cap to start the year. You certainly have. Perhaps, we should be reduced to stopping all speculation and only comment on actions AFTER Belichick has made them and discuss why Belichick was right in making them.
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It is quite reasonable to have the approach that you do, to conclude that every decision by Belichick is correct and that he has made the correct decision with regard to every tradeoff. Such homerism is fine. IMHO, it also fine to question the use of 2014 cap monies. I understand that you have great support for your position after a win. Obviously, we have no needs that should have been met.

And please spare me you usual "who would I have signed". That really isn't relevant. As Belichick has demonstrated with Ayers, he knows how to find players. The proper question (if there is one) is which players did Belichick pass on at what costs in order to carry $9.5M of cap obey into the season. Perhaps there was no front seven player available anywhere at under say $2M of 2014 cap money that might have helped us in case of injury (or any running back). Belichick made the decisions, threw the dice as he chose, and has counted on street free agents and trades to meet the depth needs at DL and LB, and has used the Practice Squad for a running back. And yes, we are 6-2.

I have nothing but congrats to Belichick for the success of the offense, and for securing players who fit in so quickly. As we all might recall, expecting new players to fit in on defense doesn't always work. This year, we hope that the strategy will work FOUR times: in Walker, Ayers, Cassillas and Branch. Sometimes one hits the trifecta, sometimes not so much.

The analysis is flawed because you need a decent sample size so as to eliminate effects of single year fluctuations.The message he is implying though is one we all know is true if we are being truly honest to ourselves.

The proper question (if there is one) is which players did Belichick pass on at what costs in order to carry $9.5M of cap obey into the season.


The primary reason that number is that high is due to trading Mankins.

I would assume that if the Patriots knew that they could not reach an agreement with Mankins, they would have made the trade a long time ago. That, in turn, would have given them time to sign another player of corresponding value/cap space/cash early in free agency.

jmt57 said:

The proper question (if there is one) is which players did Belichick pass on at what costs in order to carry $9.5M of cap obey into the season.


The primary reason that number is that high is due to trading Mankins.

I would assume that if the Patriots knew that they could not reach an agreement with Mankins, they would have made the trade a long time ago. That, in turn, would have given them time to sign another player of corresponding value/cap space/cash early in free agency.

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I am not talking about signing someone of Mankins cap value. As andy quite reasonably argued throughout free agency, the need I have been speaking about was for depth at LB, DE and DT. IMHO, even $2-4M might have provide additional significant depth. Belichick was not willing to pay that kind of money for other than a 3-down starter. And since, we had starters that Belichick was fine with, that was not going to happen. It is likely that no one available was worth $7M to Belichick.

Belichick always had that money available, as long he knew that Mankins cap hit was not acceptable. So, either Mankins would have restructured his contract, freeing up money, or he was going to be moved, freeing up money. In either case, the cap money was there to spend.

mgteich said:

Let us be clear. I am simply giving folks the reference to the discussion by Reiss of the different approach taken by the patriots, one that in 2014 put the team at the bottom of both cap AND cash spending.

We have heard many explanations of how we need the money for the future, for incentive that hit next year for the extraordinary number of key free agents, and other reasons. I am merely the messenger.

Year after year, I have heard criticism of teams that are at the bottom of the list, with lost of cap money available and at the bottom of cash spent. Well, now if such criticism is valid, we should look into the mirror.

I am NOT criticizing. Kraft and Belichick believe that this is the best long-term solution for the patriots and their record speaks for itself. However, we just MIGHT stop our holier than thou attitudes towards other teams that have cap room available and spend at the lower end.
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THE FACTS ARE WHAT THEY ARE
In 2014, the New England Patriots have CHOSEN to spend less cash and less cap money than almost any other team.

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The Pats are working with asystem that an Economist by education, concieved, and a good business man allowed to be implemented. The over riding theme is to be competitive for a Lombardi year in and year out. No other organization has been so successful for so long as the Kraft/ Belichick combo.

If that means some years with high or low cash outgo, and other years with little CAP remaining or merely comfortable CAP reserve, so be it.

Plus all the talented youngsters will soon be seeking their second and expensive contracts. The duo are preparing for that eventuality even now. There are still critical pieces to add to the Team at DE and OL, as well.

BB long ago established a pecking order for positions. Belichick has established a budget for each position and summed it to produce a realistic CAP figure long term, readjusting the position budgets accordingly. He has shown he will pay a premium for very good players at QB, MLB, LOT, DE, DT, TE and CB.

Other implicitly lesser important positions, are held to an even tighter budget. A premium player discovered at a lesser position, will be well paid, but must always justify his compensation, and if that position budget is exceeded, steps will be taken. The same consideration with perhaps more tolerance, applies to the 'important' positions.

The system works because BB is more than a Head Coach, more than a GM too. BB is an organization CEO, who sets overall organization formation, scouting organization methods, and unified budgets, roster acquisition targets, and ultimately rosters, as well as doing a damn fine job of coaching. The coaching is much, easier because the Team roster is always unified with coaching desires.

CAP: If you go to Seifert's chart, it sure doesn't look to me like there's a lot of difference between the two teams, especially given the complexities of cap management that have been pointed out by Miguel, Andy and others. I'm willing to believe that each one of the declining differentials can be explained one way or the other in a multi-year context.

CASH: I eyeballed Seifert's chart and added up an approximate total of cash spent over the three years in question. I came up with around $364MM for the Broncos and $365MM for the Pats; if you believe in the time value of money, even in a low interest rate environment, the Pats have actually spent more in real terms than the Broncos.

Bottom Line: a misleading summary by the usually reliable Reiss of a more nuanced article by Seifert.

PatsFanSince74 said:

Bottom Line: a misleading summary by the usually reliable Reiss of a more nuanced article by Seifert.

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As I pointed out in an earlier post in this thread, I don't think Reiss had anything to do with this. His byline isn't on the article. I think it's just a fishing expedition by someone at ESPN to try and create a "controversy" between the 2 teams that isn't there. All the Pats and Broncos have done this week is compliment each other, so ESPN is desperate to create something.

mgteich said:

I am not talking about signing someone of Mankins cap value. As andy quite reasonably argued throughout free agency, the need I have been speaking about was for depth at LB, DE and DT. IMHO, even $2-4M might have provide additional significant depth. Belichick was not willing to pay that kind of money for other than a 3-down starter. And since, we had starters that Belichick was fine with, that was not going to happen. It is likely that no one available was worth $7M to Belichick.

Belichick always had that money available, as long he knew that Mankins cap hit was not acceptable. So, either Mankins would have restructured his contract, freeing up money, or he was going to be moved, freeing up money. In either case, the cap money was there to spend.

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It seems like you are taking a long, elaborate and convoluted way of saying that the team did a poor job of addressing the depth at LB, DE and DT over the offseason. I'm not sure why we have to bring up the subject of cap vs cash, NLTBE vs LTBE, etc to address it. In fact, I'm not really sure it's even really a very controversial topic. It's clear that the team has some depth issues in those positions. What of it?

Over the course of this thread I get that mgteich wants us to have spent more on our front 7 from the extra money we have in the cap a big chunk of that being from a trade right before the season started. We set aside some cap for incentives that would come out of next years cap which allows us to use all of next years cap on next year not this year seems like a smart move that we always seem to do we just have more incentives that are achievable this year so need to set aside more money for it. We kept money aside for in season wiggle room again we always do this. He wants us to have signed something better than street FA when we only obtained extra cap late on which would require us to trade which we have done in season when player went down. I just don't see an issue.

mgteich said:

Reading has been your problem for quite awhile. We both read the article that AFTER THE FACT listed all the places that we might spend the cap money.

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I read just fine.

I was discussing the projections and suggestions made in July (you could have read the blogs if you chad chosen to), as I stated. I am NOT going to quote from Miguel. It's late. I'm tired. HOWEVER, let me just point out that Miguel did NOT suggest that there should be a reserve for 100% of the NLTBE bonuses that will might affect us next year. Perhaps $7M will be earned, but a 100% cushion is not what was suggested.
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Suggested by who? Miguel wrote the article that suggested we needed 9.5mil cushion that you cited to say we are being cheap.

And yes, perhaps we should IGNORE all the articles and discussions made throughout the offseason that suggested what we should or should have a cap to start the year. You certainly have. Perhaps, we should be reduced to stopping all speculation and only comment on actions AFTER Belichick has made them and discuss why Belichick was right in making them.
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Of course we should ignore discussions that were based on incorrect facts.
Are you saying that since you were wrong about how much would need to be set aside for NLTBE that BB should have spent it anyway, to appease you? After all, you discussed it.

It is quite reasonable to have the approach that you do, to conclude that every decision by Belichick is correct and that he has made the correct decision with regard to every tradeoff.
Such homerism is fine.

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Did you really just pull a Deus Irae? You are better than that. Just to be sure, are you actually saying that my opinion is invalidated because instead of having one I just agree with everything, therefore you are smarter and more objective than me? Really?

IMHO, it also fine to question the use of 2014 cap monies. I understand that you have great support for your position after a win. Obviously, we have no needs that should have been met.

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It has nothing to do with 'after a win'. I don't see anywhere that I have said the decisions were good, great, bad, or indifferent, simply that you are wrong about what cushion is required if we do not want to push money to next year.
If you are advocating pushing money to next year, thats a different discussion.
This one is simply that you are wrong.

mgteich said:

And please spare me you usual "who would I have signed". That really isn't relevant. As Belichick has demonstrated with Ayers, he knows how to find players. The proper question (if there is one) is which players did Belichick pass on at what costs in order to carry $9.5M of cap obey into the season. Perhaps there was no front seven player available anywhere at under say $2M of 2014 cap money that might have helped us in case of injury (or any running back). Belichick made the decisions, threw the dice as he chose, and has counted on street free agents and trades to meet the depth needs at DL and LB, and has used the Practice Squad for a running back. And yes, we are 6-2.

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What did Akeem Ayers cost?
Its not a matter of what players were available.
Its a matter of a large chunk of cap space in the form of NLTBE that WILL BE earned that does not show up in the cap. If they were LTBE, or salary, we wouldn't have that cap space. Instead, it will be put on nexts years cap. BB has chosen to hold it back to move to next year, for now. I would imagine he may instead choose to use some of it to extend a player or 2, but its really the same thing.
If you are advocating hiding the cap money in NLTBE bonusses so that you can overspend this year, and then be 7mill+ in the hole next year, that is a different argument.

I have nothing but congrats to Belichick for the success of the offense, and for securing players who fit in so quickly. As we all might recall, expecting new players to fit in on defense doesn't always work. This year, we hope that the strategy will work FOUR times: in Walker, Ayers, Cassillas and Branch. Sometimes one hits the trifecta, sometimes not so much.

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Those players were added after injuries. You are the one saying the injury reserve should have been less. With your plan, we wouldn't have been able to afford them. Amazing that a conservative approach to spending leads to being able to acquire players after injuries and you are complaining that we shouldn't have done that. I guess you want Vellano, White and Moore out there.