The Trade - 8 Games Later

KontradictioN said:

I've never had an issue with the trade of an important player so long as the team adequately replaces him. The first few games, they were awful. They've improved since. Hopefully this trend continues and it's not an issue that rears it's head in the playoffs again.

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The 2013 tampa Bay Buccanneers went 4-12.

So far this year they are 1-6 (and they just scored 13 points AT HOME in a loss to the Minnesota Vikings).

How "important" can this LG be if his presence cannot even move the needle in a positive direction for a 4-12 team?

shmessy said:

The 2013 tampa Bay Buccanneers went 4-12.

So far this year they are 1-6.

How "important" can this LG be if his presence cannot even move the needle in a positive direction for a 4-12 team?

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By that same logic, we now know just how good Tim Wright really is...

Danger Zone said:

By that same logic, we now know just how good Tim Wright really is...

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Is Tim Wright hogging $10 million of cap room on the Pats?

RIpats88 said:

Terrible? Tim Wright has become a contributer and weapon for tom brady and the OL is currently performing at a high level.

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I'm guessing sarcasm - no other explanation for that comment (unless it was posted by football know nothing squeaky macaroni of the sports hub)

shmessy said:

Is Tim Wright hogging $10 million of cap room on the Pats?

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Who signed Mankins to that fat contract? He's still going to cost the team 8.25 combined in dead cap this year and next.

Dutchmaster617 said:

We would be better off going forward in the second half/playoffs with Mankins.

I am not going to cry over it, but it is the truth.

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That's a judgment call, it isn't the "truth". I see your argument but I disagree. Given this team's need for potent receiving targets, given Wright's rookie numbers coupled with the flashes I have seen with the Patriots, given the Patriots appear to have found a satisfactory combo on the OL (a new one that should get better over a period of games), having another satisfactory receiving target instead of a satisfactory Guard makes us better off.
The question is, of course: Is Wright's rookie year and his flashes here a sign of things to come or is he going to be nothing more than a bit player/flash in the pan?

shmessy said:

I agree with you on the long-term win for the Patriots, but your first point about Mankins on the field against the Dolphins? Nope.

The Pats scored the very same amount of points this year in Miami as they did last year and the TOP was right around the same. And last year they had a far better, more punishing RB group with Blount instead of James White.

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Same points: the Pats scored all their points in the first half this year, going 4 for 6 on drives. Last year was the game after losing Gronk and the Pats were naturally ineffective in the red zone, going 1 for 4. This year, the Pats had Gronk, he scored a TD, they went 2 for 2 in the red zone, the problem was they couldn't move the ball in the second half. They had something like 50 yards of offense after halftime, and went 0 for 6 on drives.

TOP: The Dolphins possessed it less this year because they were given short fields due to offensive turnovers caused by the pass rush. The Pats ran 37 plays in the second half (vs. 43 in the first half), but moved less than 50 yards, with 15 plays and 37 yards coming on their final drive against a prevent defense.

Against the Dolphins last year, the Pats allowed one sack. This year, they allowed four sacks. Yards per pass was down from 6.5 to 3.8! 5 is mediocre.

Excepting the final drive, the Pats ran 18 pass plays for 10 yards of offense in the 2nd half. The last drive was 13 plays for 25 yards. Together, that's 1.3 yards per pass. In the first half, the Pats averaged 7.4 yards per pass.

I didn't have Devey down for many sacks, those came from Brady's blind spots outside the tackle box, but he had by far the most pressures allowed.

I think Mankins, or anyone really, would have resulted in a vast improvement over Devey.

EDIT: also I think Solder left the game last year with a concussion so the Pats had to kick out Mankins at LT to go with Cannon and put in Kline. With backup tackles and a backup guard to go along with Wendell at center the Pats still moved the ball and came within a play of winning, they just had no red zone offense. This year, the Pats were one warm body (Mankins, Kline) away from moving the ball at all.

Don't see these games being very comparable, only contrastable.

Rob0729 said:

They won't pay him that money, but his roster bonus of $12 million isn't due to April 1st. So they can hold onto him for the first few weeks of free agency when everyone is doling out the big money.

http://espn.go.com/blog/new-england-patriots/post/_/id/4760152/details-on-darrelle-revis-contract

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The decision to pick up the roster bonus has to be made before the end of 2014 league year aka before the first day of free agency. The Patriots pick up option. Revis is due the 12 million in April 1. Do not pick up option. Revis becomes a free agent and the Pats can not place the franchise tag.

Therefore, Revis and not the Patriots has the leverage. I do not see the Patriots with any leverage at all.

patchick said:

No question, but you can't expect to give up nothing in a trade. A year of Mankins would have been nice to have; 3 years of Tim Wright cheap + significant rollover cap space + a 4th round pick is, I think, even nicer.

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The part of my post you didn't quote mentioned the cap space and the fourth rounder being nice and I said the jury isn't out. If the O line stays healthy then the trade is definitely a win.

We don't need Wright to have a good game in order to score a lot of points. We do need the line to play well to score a lot of points. The trade was a bet on the other interior lineman being healthy and good. They are good so far. Let's hope they stay healthy.

I think we are much better off. The Pats have replaced A PERP with a PROVEN youngster. The worst of the aging Mankins loss has already occurred, and we were 6-2 going through it.

DarrylS said:

Interesting tweet from Chris Price... winna, winna chicken dinner.

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This statistic confirms a couple of things. BB was correct in deciding surgery was needed on the Offensive line. Furthermore it appears that his chosen key piece of the puzzle fix, Bryan Stork is a major part of the solution.

Flemming has not YET contributed, due to injury. He may have to wait until next TC to get his opportunity though. The early season experimentation time has expired.

shmessy said:

I agree with you on the long-term win for the Patriots, but your first point about Mankins on the field against the Dolphins? Nope.

The Pats scored the very same amount of points this year in Miami as they did last year and the TOP was right around the same. And last year they had a far better, more punishing RB group with Blount instead of James White.

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Shmessy, I was a fan of the trade, but looking back on it I do think not having Mankins their did cost us the game vs Miami. Not to say Mankins wouldn't have given up a sack, but the second half of that game the line was a train wreck that couldn't give Brady any time. I think Mankins, with his leadership would have brought stability their.

With that, I think its obvious BB made the right call on this one.

patfanken said:

I thought this was a good post except for the above sentence. Unless Logan Mankins was willing to play DT that game, his absence WAS NOT the cause of the Pats loss. I think the more accurate absence or criticism for that game would have been that of Tommy Kelley. IMHO, HIS presence would have made a difference in that game. Don't forget that the Pats DID score 20 first half points in that game.

That loss was a bad one, but it was a collective loss with a lot of blame to spread around. People forget that Volmer wasn't playing at his best at the start of the season. We didn't know that Cannon wasn't able to process playing G. We didn't know that not keeping Kelley was a mistake, especially after the Siliga injury.. I think the heat took its toll in the 2nd half and was a bigger factor than most realize. Brady certainly wasn't close to the QB we've seen the past month. Gronk was a shadow of what we saw yesterday, etc, etc.

IMHO it's both simplistic and lazy to say that the early losses at the start of the season would have been wins if Logan Mankins was still on the team. Besides its part of the beauty of the game itself that so rarely does the addition or subtraction of one player is the sole difference between winning or losing.

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People quickly forget the circumstances of the Miami game. Kelley wanted out,so BB let him go. He signed with the Cards for less money.

Promptly after he left, Buchannon suffered the dreaded high ankle sprain. Then Siliga and Chris Jones both got dinged, as did Hightower. Easley was still recovering from his knee, and Moore was very raw. So for one reason or another, there temporarily was no depth or rotation for the game in the Miami summer heat.

We went into the Miami with just enough players to start, and these "starters" had no one to give them a rest.

In the first half the Pats rolled to a 20-3 lead, but the starters were wilting in the heat and humidity.

The Pats D was gassed in the second half and Moreno reprised his power running game patterned from the Broncos game at Foxboro the season before. The Dolphins earned that win, as the temporarily short handed D staggered through the 3rd and 4th quarters.

Mankins wouldn't have made any difference. He wasn't there when the Pats offense rolled to their 3 score, first half, lead.

OhExaulted1 said:

Who signed Mankins to that fat contract? He's still going to cost the team 8.25 combined in dead cap this year and next.

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$7 million less than if they kept him, didn't have Wright and didn't have the 4th rounder.

Signing him to that bloated contract was bad - - and I wrote that here at the time immediately.
Trading him and getting what they got was great - - and I wrote that here immediately.

shmessy said:

The 2013 tampa Bay Buccanneers went 4-12.

So far this year they are 1-6 (and they just scored 13 points AT HOME in a loss to the Minnesota Vikings).

How "important" can this LG be if his presence cannot even move the needle in a positive direction for a 4-12 team?

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Shall I quote your posts about T-E-A-M now, or no? In this instance, would you give credit for our OL's stellar play in years past soley to Mankins?

KontradictioN said:

Shall I quote your posts about T-E-A-M now, or no? In this instance, would you give credit for our OL's stellar play in years past soley to Mankins?

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Actually, Kontra, that point STRENGTHENS the T-E-A-M model.

The Patriots, as a T-E-A-M, are better with the useful #2 TE and an OL that has not regressed from 2013.

Mankins has made actually zero difference to the Tampa Bay Buccanneers. And his absence has not slowed down the trajectory of the New England Patriots at all.

With or without Mankins, the Patriots will win their 12 or so games, the Buccanneers will come in last place in their division. The sun will rise, the sun will set and the Patriots will have $7 million more of cap space to use for the future.

Thank you for prompting the point.

shmessy said:

Actually, Kontra, that point STRENGTHENS the T-E-A-M model.

Mankins has made actually zero difference to the Tampa Bay Buccanneers. And his absence has not slowed down the trajectory of the New England Patriots at all. The OL is playing as well or better than in 2013.

Thank you for prompting the point.

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Actually, it just destroyed your's, since you were tossing the blame on him for their inability to improve without nary a mention of Lovie Smith or any of the other issues with that team. I actually never disagreed with your point about the team aspect of the game, particularly along the OL. Mankins covering for the likes of Wendell and Solder on a good amount of plays no doubt hurt his play as well. If you've ever played TE or OL, you would know that one or two weak links playing next to you usually means having to overextend yourself. But, again, I've never hated a trade so long as the player can be replaced admirably. The OL has played well the last few weeks. Hopefully that continues.

KontradictioN said:

Actually, it just destroyed your's, since you were tossing the blame on him for their inability to improve without nary a mention of Lovie Smith or any of the other issues with that team. I actually never disagreed with your point about the team aspect of the game, particularly along the OL. Mankins covering for the likes of Wendell and Solder on a good amount of plays no doubt hurt his play as well. If you've ever played TE or OL, you would know that one or two weak links playing next to you usually means having to overextend yourself. But, again, I've never hated a trade so long as the player can be replaced admirably. The OL has played well the last few weeks. Hopefully that continues.

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I have no idea or interest in your computer game of points. You claim that the OL has played well the last few weeks. Then WHO, pray-tell, is covering for "the likes of Wendell and Solder" now??????

This was a GREAT trade. In fact, it could be considered an absolute HEIST. Belichick picked Tampa's pocket.

Wright opens up a new edge for this offense.

The 4th rounder is very likely going to be in the top 3 or 4.

$7 million of new cap space WILL be used (hopefully wisely).

Tampa Bay is 1-6 and scored 13 points at home in a loss to the freaking Vikings on Sunday. How pathetic is that?

The question must be asked. For a T-E-A-M, how much IS Mankins worth??????

If we can play Chicago every week...the trade looks great!!

shmessy said:

I have no idea or interest in your computer game of points. You claim that the OL has played well the last few weeks. Then WHO, pray-tell, is covering for "the likes of Wendell and Connolly" now??????

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They're still weaknesses. Just like they were in seasons past even when the OL played well. Wendell just looks better suited for guard than C. Make no mistake about it, though, the guy is still undersized and is still going to struggle against bigger DT's. But he's also playing next to a bigger mauler at C now, so that should help.

This was a GREAT trade. In fact, it could be considered an absolute HEIST. Belichick picked Tampa's pocket.

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It's looking like they've done a good job scheming to replace Mankins now. Hopefully that continues. They don't hand out trophies for dominating mid-season. They do for dominating at the end of it in January. January, if you remember correctly, is where our OL ultimately failed and played it's part in costing us playoff games. That time of the year will be the determination of whether or not this was a HEIST.

Wright opens up a new edge for this offense.

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Can't disagree here. I want to see him used a lot in this game.

The 4th rounder is very likely going to be in the top 3 or 4.

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You should start following college football before making statements like this. This point is nothing to be excited about since this is going to be a top-heavy and not particularly deep draft.

Tampa Bay is 1-6 and scored 13 points at home in a loss to the freaking Vikings.

How much IS Mankins worth??????

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Tampa Bay has a lot more and bigger problems than Mankins right now. Why you're continuing to put the onus on him is beyond me. You are aware that some teams can have very good players on them and still suck, right?

Miguel said:

The decision to pick up the roster bonus has to be made before the end of 2014 league year aka before the first day of free agency. The Patriots pick up option. Revis is due the 12 million in April 1. Do not pick up option. Revis becomes a free agent and the Pats can not place the franchise tag.

Therefore, Revis and not the Patriots has the leverage. I do not see the Patriots with any leverage at all.

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I guess I misunderstood the contract then.