The Trade - 8 Games Later

mgteich said:

Andy, be real!

How can Cannon be the best option at LG if he has never played LG. Why wouldn't he have been give reps at LG during the preseason.

What you are suggesting (and it seems rightly) is that Bleichick knew that Cannon was good enough to start at LG in place of Mankins, with no practice whatsoever.

Others can mark this on the calendar. I am not critical of the trade. I am STRONGLY critical of starting a backup RT at LG with no preparation.

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Then who was the best option at LG? Because no one had played there.
Connolly was the C. Who do you play at LG? Cannon had proven clearly to be the best OL of the bunch, and needed to transition to G. Its easy to say play him their in preseason, but that didn't happen, and a decision still had to be made. Who are you playing there that proved to be a better blocker than Cannon?

You seem to expect every question to be answered before it comes up.

Sure seems like a lot of folks had breakfast with Bill

Wish I knew him that well. LOL

AndyJohnson said:

4 tackles?

Frankly I think BB looked at it and felt out of Connolly, Wendell, Stork, Fleming, Cannon, Devey and Kline 3 would emerge as an effective interior OL, and probably knew there would be growing pains. To him that was enough to pull the trigger to save 7 mill and hopefully get something back in return that could help.

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I agree with this.

I disagree with starting Cannon at LG, a position which he had never played, and could have been better prepared for by using the preseason for reps, instead of the regular season.

Let's be clear, I would have had no objection at all with Cannon starting at RG, where he has played before. I would have had no problem with Cannon being tried out at LG during the preseason, understanding that Cannon might be the best backup OG the team has, and who would be called to start as needed.

We would be better off going forward in the second half/playoffs with Mankins.

I am not going to cry over it, but it is the truth.

Did we start Solder, Cannon, Fleming and Vollmer one weak or didn't we?

AndyJohnson said:

4 tackles?

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mgteich said:

We have no information on who Belichick sought in free agency or the draft. You are suggesting that Belichick was fine with Hooman starting the season with no backup whatsoever if Gronk isn't ready. Perhaps, you are correct. Perhaps our WR's were considered so good that a ZERO TE offense was just fine.

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YOU are the one saying we searched hard and long for a TE.
If that were the case, we would have actually gotten one. Or are you suggesting BB couldn't figure out how to sign a FA, make a trade, or use a draft pick?

Gronk was ready to start the season. You are arguing that he wasn't.

I am simply saying there is no evidence of a desperate effort to upgrade TE. And when we got Wright, we aren't using him anywhere near as much as we used Hernandez. If it was the priority you suggest we would be heavy with 2 TE sets, which we are not. 5 snaps in the first half yesterday.

mgteich said:

Did we start Solder, Cannon, Fleming and Vollmer one weak or didn't we?

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We did not.

Straight up, Tim Wright, just by himself, for Logan Mankins is a win. IMO Mankins wouldn't have made a discernable difference in our early season O-line issues. And now, by mid-season we've proved we didn't need him. So a young, cheap, productive move TE for a spare part. Win.

That we also opened up $7 mil in cap space _and_ got a 4th round pick turns if from a "win" to a "WIN!"

AndyJohnson said:

Then who was the best option at LG? Because no one had played there.
Connolly was the C. Who do you play at LG? Cannon had proven clearly to be the best OL of the bunch, and needed to transition to G. Its easy to say play him their in preseason, but that didn't happen, and a decision still had to be made. Who are you playing there that proved to be a better blocker than Cannon?

You seem to expect every question to be answered before it comes up.

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Are you telling me that Kline has never played at LG for the patriots?

mgteich said:

I agree with this.

I disagree with starting Cannon at LG, a position which he had never played, and could have been better prepared for by using the preseason for reps, instead of the regular season.

Let's be clear, I would have had no objection at all with Cannon starting at RG, where he has played before. I would have had no problem with Cannon being tried out at LG during the preseason, understanding that Cannon might be the best backup OG the team has, and who would be called to start as needed.

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There is no significant difference between RG and LG.

mgteich said:

Are you telling me that Kline has never played at LG for the patriots?

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Not well.
There is no way in the world I start Josh Kline and put Marcus Cannon on the bench when I don't have any real history of either of them playing G.
Cannon played a number of games and played very well. It is the exception that he couldn't make the move to G, not the rule. Many, many OL easily switch positions.

Rob0729 said:

But if he was just looking to boost his value this year, why were the Jets his first choice?

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I would think it was because of his comfort level with the setup in general and a coach like Ryan that gave him a pretty free hand. The main goal was to find a team that would pay the going rate, and one that would let him shine defensively. There's no question that the Jets had the cap room and that he wouldn't have to worry about the rest of the Jets corners outplaying him.

PP2 said:

I think he'll want to stay here and will be open to a more team-friendly deal.

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I hope you are right.

AndyJohnson said:

There is no significant difference between RG and LG.

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If you believe that, then I understand why we are tilting at windmills.

I agree if LG and RG is the same position, then Cannon was a fine choice.

Deus Irae said:

It probably cost the team 2 games, certainly cost them at least one, and hasn't resulted in anything particularly positive. The Patriots now field an OL that still has its 2 worst players from last year, but is missing its best player, and Wright has been absolutely nothing to right home about.

Yes, that's freakin' terrible.

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Not sure if you're trolling here or not. If you're being serious you obviously haven't seen Mankins' play in Tampa.

Anyway i'll just assume you're throwing troll lines out.

Oswlek said:

That is, at best, a 50/50 proposition. Mankins struggled against Miami's DL last year and he hasn't been a plus pass protector in years, so Brady having more time is no sure thing. Mankins also wouldn't have been much help in slowing Moreno down.

From where I sit, Miami wins that game 75% of the time based on how it played out.

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Mankins might not be a plus pass protector, but Devey's third quarter in Miami was the worst thing I've ever seen on a Pats o-line.

Rob0729 said:

I just don't know how anyone can argue that when Cameron Wake was dominating Vollmer on the other side of the line and the Pats' defense was garbage in the second half.

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Vollmer got rolled up on in the 3rd quarter, similar to what put him on IR last year, and Fleming subbed for him. He came back in because you can't feed a rookie RT to Cameron Wake, and that's when Wake went berserk. Until that point Vollmer was probably the Pats' best lineman.

patfanken said:

I thought this was a good post except for the above sentence. Unless Logan Mankins was willing to play DT that game, his absence WAS NOT the cause of the Pats loss. I think the more accurate absence or criticism for that game would have been that of Tommy Kelley. IMHO, HIS presence would have made a difference in that game. Don't forget that the Pats DID score 20 first half points in that game.

That loss was a bad one, but it was a collective loss with a lot of blame to spread around. People forget that Volmer wasn't playing at his best at the start of the season. We didn't know that Cannon wasn't able to process playing G. We didn't know that not keeping Kelley was a mistake, especially after the Siliga injury.. I think the heat took its toll in the 2nd half and was a bigger factor than most realize. Brady certainly wasn't close to the QB we've seen the past month. Gronk was a shadow of what we saw yesterday, etc, etc.

IMHO it's both simplistic and lazy to say that the early losses at the start of the season would have been wins if Logan Mankins was still on the team. Besides its part of the beauty of the game itself that so rarely does the addition or subtraction of one player is the sole difference between winning or losing.

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The Pats offense went in the toilet in Miami because Wendell and Vollmer both got injured in the 3rd quarter, meaning the Pats had to ride out Devey's meltdown and couldn't give Solder the help he needed because Vollmer was walking wounded. If Mankins is active in place of Devey the Pats have a chance because you can chip to help your OTs so long as nobody's barreling through the B gaps consistently. As in, every play.

The trade of Mankins was a significant factor in the loss. The offense stays on the field longer with him, perhaps scores a few more points, but most importantly doesn't leave the defense on the field to die.

That said I was and am a big fan of the trade because playoff games are won in January not September, and I think Wright + random guard will be better for us then than Mankins + nobody, who was the player at Wright's position in camp.

It did hurt us in September though.

Dutchmaster617 said:

We would be better off going forward in the second half/playoffs with Mankins.

I am not going to cry over it, but it is the truth.

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Really, had you said earlier in the season you may have had a point, but have you seen Mankins in the playoffs?

Dutchmaster617 said:

We would be better off going forward in the second half/playoffs with Mankins.

I am not going to cry over it, but it is the truth.

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Would we be better of with Mankins and Hoomanawanui as the 2nd TE?

Give me the OL now with Tim Wright as the 2nd TE.

makoute said:

Really, had you said earlier in the season you may have had a point, but have you seen Mankins in the playoffs?

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Does anyone have Mankins stats (pressures, sacks, hits allowed etc) for the year?

I know our (Patsfans.com) Twitter feed had beat writers putting out the fact that this OL has allowed 8 fewer sacks than they did last year over the same number of games.

I've never had an issue with the trade of an important player so long as the team adequately replaces him. The first few games, they were awful. They've improved since. Hopefully this trend continues and it's not an issue that rears it's head in the playoffs again.

unoriginal said:

The trade of Mankins was a significant factor in the loss. The offense stays on the field longer with him, perhaps scores a few more points, but most importantly doesn't leave the defense on the field to die.

That said I was and am a big fan of the trade because playoff games are won in January not September, and I think Wright + random guard will be better for us then than Mankins + nobody, who was the player at Wright's position in camp.

It did hurt us in September though.

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I agree with you on the long-term win for the Patriots, but your first point about Mankins on the field against the Dolphins? Nope.

The Pats scored the very same amount of points this year in Miami as they did last year and the TOP was right around the same. And last year they had a far better, more punishing RB group with Blount instead of James White.