I know it's one game at a time, but in the big picture...

Brady_to_Moss said:

we can look ahead..we don't play the games.

If we lose vs bears..we need that DEN game. because after the bye..it gets tough and tough on the road.

Just w vs bears and I like where we are at....lose and man...does it get tough...especially with no Jones

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With the way Denver is rolling over chumps, we need to beat Denver for home field. With the current schedule, we could beat the bears, then Denver, and still not get the first seed. Indy, Green Bay, and San Diego on the road is no joke.

PatsFanSince74 said:

"Far off in the rear view mirror?" The Jets game was ten days ago. The Pats ceded 40 minutes of possession time to Geno and crew, gave up a total of 423 yards of which 218 were on the ground and might have lost the game if Special Teams hadn't made a play with no time left on the clock. I'm NOT saying that that is what the Pats are, just that I am not smart enough to know what they are at this point in this season.

I also disagree that the really good Pats teams of the last 14 seasons took "several months to get themselves figured out." Several weeks, sure. But we're heading into week eight now. That's half the season. The only team that took several months to figure it out and go on to win it all has been the Giants in both of their SB-winning seasons under Coughlin. So, there's hope, but it's not the pattern of the Pats in 03, 04, 07 and 11.

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I didn't mention the Jet game in my post, so I'm not sure what the relevance of that is and I gave you several seasons where the team did, in fact, need a couple months to figure themselves out. This year it apparently took them four weeks, which is in line with '03 and most other seasons.

New England Pride said:

With the way Denver is rolling over chumps, we need to beat Denver for home field. With the current schedule, we could beat the bears, then Denver, and still not get the first seed. Indy, Green Bay, and San Diego on the road is no joke.

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We won't beat their record this year anyways even with a W vs DEnver...so either way the AFC will go through them

Brady_to_Moss said:

We won't beat their record this year anyways even with a W vs DEnver...so either way the AFC will go through them

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I'm not gonna concede that yet, but I understand why you or anyone else would feel that way.

Brady_to_Moss said:

We won't beat their record this year anyways even with a W vs DEnver...so either way the AFC will go through them

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if all fails, we can hope manning has another classic one and done. if julius thomas doesn't convert on that third and long against the chargers last year, who knows..maybe rivers drives the team down and scores/forced OT...then, well forhead most likely gags.

Gronkowski123 said:

if all fails, we can hope manning has another classic one and done. if julius thomas doesn't convert on that third and long against the chargers last year, who knows..maybe rivers drives the team down and scores/forced OT...then, well forhead most likely gags.

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Ya that 3rd down conversion was BS...SD should have had that ball back. Oh well

Gronkowski123 said:

if all fails, we can hope manning has another classic one and done. if julius thomas doesn't convert on that third and long against the chargers last year, who knows..maybe rivers drives the team down and scores/forced OT...then, well forhead most likely gags.

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A lot of speculation there but the way that game was going, not out of the question.

Brady_to_Moss said:

Ya that 3rd down conversion was BS...SD should have had that ball back. Oh well

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somehow thomas was wide open if my memory is correct.
anyway, we have to take care of the bears tomorrow.

Eh, I wouldn't worry about it too much. Yes, it's nice to have home field but Peyton did lose there vs the Ravens on a cold night not too long ago. I was more pissed about the weather being that beautiful for late January in Denver last year than losing, we did have a lot of injuries going into that game. If we do end up having to go there again this year, hopefully it's with Gronk and a solidified defense. Manning not having feeling in his fingers would be a plus too.

KA- said:

Eh, I wouldn't worry about it too much. Yes, it's nice to have home field but Peyton did lose there vs the Ravens on a cold night not too long ago. I was more pissed about the weather being that beautiful for late January in Denver last year than losing, we did have a lot of injuries going into that game. If we do end up having to go there again this year, hopefully it's with Gronk and a solidified defense. Manning not having feeling in his fingers would be a plus too.

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This team will be 11-5 this year I think..10-6 at worst. Broncos will beat that record.

If the Pats want the #1 seed they NEED to beat Denver, period.

We should then go undefeated at home and drop no more than 2 road games. Road losses to the Packers/Chargers will be alright as long as there are no more gaffes against AFC East teams/home losses.

12-4 and a head-to-head over Denver might do the trick. Denver still plays @ Chiefs, @ Chargers and @ Bengals after us.

PatsFanSince74 said:

"Far off in the rear view mirror?" The Jets game was ten days ago. The Pats ceded 40 minutes of possession time to Geno and crew, gave up a total of 423 yards of which 218 were on the ground and might have lost the game if Special Teams hadn't made a play with no time left on the clock. I'm NOT saying that that is what the Pats are, just that I am not smart enough to know what they are at this point in this season.

I also disagree that the really good Pats teams of the last 14 seasons took "several months to get themselves figured out." Several weeks, sure. But we're heading into week eight now. That's half the season. The only team that took several months to figure it out and go on to win it all has been the Giants in both of their SB-winning seasons under Coughlin. So, there's hope, but it's not the pattern of the Pats in 03, 04, 07 and 11.

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Not meaning to sound argumentative because I agree with the majority of what you're saying, but here are a couple of examples that were a bit different than the typical '03, '04, '07 that you gave:

1) In 2006, we spun straw into gold with that ridiculous WR corps. One may also look at the back to back losses in weeks 8 and 9. Not only did they lose back to back in weeks 8 and 9, they lost back to back at HOME. 2 months into the season, we really still had no idea what the team was made of.

2) In 2009, we saw more of the same. 3 losses in a 4 week span that occurred in weeks 9, 11, and 12. By week 12, that team certainly had not found itself. This was at its highest point in week 11 on the road at New Orleans, when they were smashed 17-38 on primetime TV, and Belichick was famously quoted as saying "I just can't get this team to play like we need to."

3) In 2011, we saw back to back losses in weeks 8 and 9, and that was coming off of a bye! They were sitting at 5-3 and once again, it was more than halfway through the season and we really had no idea what they were made of.

I agree that they normally get off to a fairly stable start, as there's not much arguing with that point. I think things were a bit different this year due to losing the first game and starting off 0-1. Since then, we've gone 5-1, so I see the same old, same old myself.

With the next 6 games being extremely difficult, I will not be surprised in the least if they end up 3-3, which will still put them in the mix for an 8-4 record with 4 games remaining.

D-line is still a huge concern and the loss of Mayo, does not leave me confident in our ability to stop the run or pressure Manning. I have faith in the offense and secondary (barring major injuries of course)
but I've got a bad feeling if Jones doesn't get back for the playoffs, no getting off the field on 3rd downs and Brady on the sidelines alot. Then you're asking too much out of the offense, realistically.

I hope I'm wrong and that there is good reason BB almost completely neglected DE/LB/pass rusher depth this offseason while investing big in the secondary.

supafly said:

Not meaning to sound argumentative because I agree with the majority of what you're saying, but here are a couple of examples that were a bit different than the typical '03, '04, '07 that you gave:

1) In 2006, we spun straw into gold with that ridiculous WR corps. One may also look at the back to back losses in weeks 8 and 9. Not only did they lose back to back in weeks 8 and 9, they lost back to back at HOME. 2 months into the season, we really still had no idea what the team was made of.

2) In 2009, we saw more of the same. 3 losses in a 4 week span that occurred in weeks 9, 11, and 12. By week 12, that team certainly had not found itself. This was at its highest point in week 11 on the road at New Orleans, when they were smashed 17-38 on primetime TV, and Belichick was famously quoted as saying "I just can't get this team to play like we need to."

3) In 2011, we saw back to back losses in weeks 8 and 9, and that was coming off of a bye! They were sitting at 5-3 and once again, it was more than halfway through the season and we really had no idea what they were made of.

I agree that they normally get off to a fairly stable start, as there's not much arguing with that point. I think things were a bit different this year due to losing the first game and starting off 0-1. Since then, we've gone 5-1, so I see the same old, same old myself.

With the next 6 games being extremely difficult, I will not be surprised in the least if they end up 3-3, which will still put them in the mix for an 8-4 record with 4 games remaining.

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no argument. if the only true measure of success is winning it all, then those are all seasons when that did not happen, for whatever reasons.

Oswlek said:

I didn't mention the Jet game in my post, so I'm not sure what the relevance of that is and I gave you several seasons where the team did, in fact, need a couple months to figure themselves out. This year it apparently took them four weeks, which is in line with '03 and most other seasons.

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We'll have to agree to disagree. I'll only point out that we are already at the "couple months" point and nothing is really clear.
Enjoy a beautiful Sunday! Go Pats!

PatsFanSince74 said:

no argument. if the only true measure of success is winning it all, then those are all seasons when that did not happen, for whatever reasons.

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Understood, PFS74. I'm just pointing out that we went decently far in all of those scenarios, while still having some unanswered questions and back to back losses in the middle of the season.

2006--robbed of a chance to go to SB by blowing a 21-6 lead at the half of the AFCCG

2009--#3 or #4 seed, although lost the first game at home to the Ravens (worst example)

2011--SB appearance, which produced a very reasonable chance of winning the whole thing

PatsFanSince74 said:

We'll have to agree to disagree. I'll only point out that we are already at the "couple months" point and nothing is really clear.
Enjoy a beautiful Sunday! Go Pats!

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I'll let Mr. Vedder do the talking for me.





In all seriousness, to get a feel for this team, you need to completely disregard everything you saw the first four weeks of the season. Just ignore it altogether. Then it all comes into focus.

Oswlek said:

I'll let Mr. Vedder do the talking for me.





In all seriousness, to get a feel for this team, you need to completely disregard everything you saw the first four weeks of the season. Just ignore it altogether. Then it all comes into focus.

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I simply don't think we can do that, especially when we have to ignore the game against the Jets, who showed what they are really made of yesterday. We just disagree. I posted the following in another thread a few moments ago and it sums up what I think the best I can say it. I'm not trying to change your mind, but you're not going too change mine either.


I was tearing (what's left of) my hair out after yesterday's game trying to figure out which is the real Pats team: the Vikings/Bills/Bengals/Bears Pats or the Jets/Chiefs/Raiders/Dolphins Pats.?

And the answer was clear. It's both.

The Pats have not yet shown that they are going to be a dominant team this year. They are a very good team, but, so far at least, their weaknesses can jump up and bite them or scare them one week (Chiefs/Jets) while their strengths can humiliate teams with delusions of being good (Bengals/Bears) another week.

What does that mean? When I was starting out in the business world, a very wise guy said to me, "Remember, you're never as good as you think you are on your best day or as bad as you think you are on your worst day."

That applies to this Pats team as well. We're all just along for the ride.

Yes, you can. In fact, you should. Those four games provide not one shred of predictive value for the remainder of 2014.

I have no idea why you keep lumping the Jet game in, I've never stated that it should be ignored.

Oswlek said:

Yes, you can. In fact, you should. Those four games provide not one shred of predictive value for the remainder of 2014.

I have no idea why you keep lumping the Jet game in, I've never stated that it should be ignored.

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We should just stop this discussion. I keep "lumping the Jet game in" because it is completely relevant to the topic we are debating. You want to say it's irrelevant. I don't think we can do that because it occurred so recently and because the Jets are so, so really awful bad.

My view is simple: this is a very good Pats team, but it has not yet shown that it is going to be a dominant team this season. It has shown that it is a team with strengths and weaknesses that can shape or deform its performance in a given week.

All that really matters is the next game and, to a lesser extent, what the team sorts itself out to be in December. I have no idea whether that's going to be a team that is ready to make a run deep into January or one that is going to lose to a stronger, more consistent team in the Wild Card or Division round.